Finding the balance for a pro-growth Europe

Transcript

Richard Quest:What a splendid night it was last night. Absolutely splendid. The voice is sort of holding on. You know, the next panel is actually one of the most intimidating that I've done. Now, why do I say that?

Iacopo Prissinotti:Eh?

Richard Quest:I've known the panelists for some time. B, they are all extremely experienced panelists, and they know how to avoid answering any question that they don't want to answer. And C, they're also— they know this subject backwards, inside out, upside down, round and about. And that creates unique challenges for somebody like myself, because how do you get these people to actually say something? When they know what they don't want to say and they know how not to say it. But they are here and they do. And the other big challenge that we've got with this next panel, finding the balance for pro-growth Europe. Well, that's a heap of old nonsense. Let's just call it what's gone wrong. The other big problem with this, with these, with this next panel is everybody knows the subjects. And the goal here is to try and find a way where we can hear from them where we're going forward, not just going round in ever-decreasing circles. So with that in mind, let me invite first of all Ourania Georgoutsakou from Airlines for Europe. Ourania, choose which— I think we'll put you there right in the middle, if you may. Thank you very much. With me, my good friend from AACO Arab Aviation, Abdul Wahab Teffaha.

Iacopo Prissinotti:Come up.

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:please.

Richard Quest:I know you are— you choose your seat, sir. I know you're suffering a little bit from— you can sit at the right at the end. He's not being disrespectful, he's got a bit of a, bit of a flu. Iacopo Prissinotti from EUROCONTROL, who is the man who's basically going to destroy everybody's summer. You come and sit next to me.

Iacopo Prissinotti:Thank you.

Richard Quest:Hang on, I haven't done the dry call yet. When you say in the aviation industry, Willie believes this, Willie said that, we all know who we're talking about. He is probably the most well-known person across the entire aviation industry. And for good measure, he is now the global spokesman because as IATA, he leads the organization. Willie Walsh. So, Let's start with Eurocontrol. How bad is it going to be this summer?

Iacopo Prissinotti:I was expecting this question, Richard. Good morning to everyone.

Richard Quest:But disappointed?

Iacopo Prissinotti:No, no, I'm very happy. I'm very happy. I think it's the right way to start this panel. Different shades of grey, let me answer you, in the sense that it's not going to be fantastic. It's not going to be good. It can be decent, but it can also be not so good. It can also be bad. And it can also—

Richard Quest:You're telling me nothing.

Iacopo Prissinotti:No, I'm trying. I'm coming. I'm coming to the point. Coming to the point. Coming to the point. And it can also be a disaster. Okay? And I'm saying this because it all depends on the industry. It all depends on the common efforts that we are trying to do. It suffices. What I like always to say is that we are in a booming situation in terms of traffic growth. The infrastructure is not at the level of coping with the level of demand. The only way to be successful is for everyone.

Richard Quest:What's wrong? What is the problem this summer?

Iacopo Prissinotti:The problem this summer is— first of all, can you— if you allow me to conclude on Manhattan, I will tell you the problem of the summer. The question today that we have to manage is to ensure that everybody sticks to what is agreed in the plans and delivers what is agreed in the plans. And this risk that this will not be the case is very high. So the problem of the summer is going to be that not all the partners will deliver what they have to deliver in terms of capacity towards the network. The fact that we are not still with a network-minded approach, understanding that each and every action of each and every organization will impact strongly the network in a positive or negative way, negative side is still not fully there. And we're going to potentially have a risk of going down the line of having a worse summer than next year if not all the partners will deliver what has to be delivered.

Richard Quest:Ourania.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:I've been here for almost 2 years, which feels like forever in this sector, but it's the first time I work for an industry where we all look at each other and we all have the same analysis year in, year out, and we don't seem to change anything. is my perception. We have 20% more delays for 5% more traffic this summer is, I think, the estimate. I come from a country which relies on aviation. 8 out of 10 come by plane, 30% indirect GDP contribution. Clearly, the capacity is clearly below par. Why are we not just changing what we do things? We can talk about cess or lack thereof later, but I think one of the biggest things, if we're going to do anything differently this summer, is— and reduce the actual delays we expect is to actually act differently. So everyone has an action item, but we should also, when that action item is not completed, go to plan B.

Richard Quest:I understand, of course, EUROCONTROL, you are the, if you will, the provider rather than the politicians who are the instigator in a sense. So I understand that difficulty that EUROCONTROL has. You have to work within the confines of the agreements that have been given, and you have to hope that people live up to their— their commitments.

Iacopo Prissinotti:Can I correct you a little bit? Not hope, but push them strongly and allow for this transformation. I think Ourania is fully right. I think we need to get this mindset change strongly in place. It is our industry. And still we see that it suffices that one air navigation service provider or one airport doesn't perform, that we will be all of us in big trouble, like it happened last year. And that's why we are working strongly, not to hope, but really to push and be very transparent. And I appreciate what you were saying this morning, that we are starting not to name and shame, but to be fully open and transparent, communicating who's not performing.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:So there's a quick one, for example. I mean, we tend to prepare everything and then go to bed. We should be planning overnight. We should be moving schedules around. When you know who's flying and when you know what's happening and when you know what the weather looks like, Why are we going to bed at night? Why are we not moving people around? Airlines are prepared to put people in the ops center to say, okay, I'm going to take one for the network, and I'm going to move in a different direction so that capacity is restored and we don't flap on the same seats.

Richard Quest:Why do you think we're not, Willie? Why do you think we're not?

Willie Walsh:Well, for a few reasons. I think politics has a big part to play in it, which is unfortunate. I think Europe isn't pro-growth when it comes to aviation. Which is a sad thing to see when you compare Europe with other parts of the world. But I also think there's no incentive for ANSPs to deliver, to perform. They get rewarded whether they're good, bad, or indifferent. And in fact, the problem is they've been rewarded for being terrible in previous years, and there's no reason why they'll change. So we know we're going into a summer understaffed in some areas because we were understaffed last summer and the summer before, and they've not done anything to address it because they don't care. So it's a shocking assessment of Europe.

Richard Quest:But if I just take, for example, the current situation, and I know it's not completely analogous, but in the United States with Newark, for example, the— whatever the reasons why Newark has fallen over and the whole Northeast Transcom area is in difficulty, if you The amount of political shouting that's going to put pressure on administrations and departments, from the Secretary of Transportation to everybody else, basically saying something has to change and get on with it, is extraordinary. And we don't see that in Europe in the same way.

Willie Walsh:Yeah, because there's a political desire in Europe— sorry, in the US to fix it, and there's a political voice that is demanding that it gets fixed. You don't hear any Why?

Richard Quest:Why do you think that's not the case? Because all the politicians still have to get elected in Europe. They don't have the same connection to the issues that they do there.

Willie Walsh:No, because they're thinking nationally rather than European. And that this is the problem. You know, the concept of the EU is fantastic. I'm proud to be a European. The reality of the EU actually is shocking. And that's the problem, that The EU needs to face up to the requirements for Europe to be a coordinated body. We saw that during COVID you know, at the first moment of the disaster that COVID represented, you had 27 different approaches to it rather than a united approach. And we see it every time when you get to a problem that requires coordination and working together, Europe doesn't actually get to do it.

Richard Quest:Unless it becomes a mega Mega crisis.

Willie Walsh:Well, even when it became a mega crisis—

Richard Quest:Alex Stubbs, president of Finland, his famous quote about Europe is always remembered. Europe starts with a problem which becomes a crisis, goes into chaos, and ends up with a suboptimal outcome.

Willie Walsh:Yeah, I must remember that one. That's good.

Richard Quest:Yeah, he's good. And he's the president of Finland.

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:Well, actually, from outside Europe, we look at Europe and say, why are they doing that to themselves?

Willie Walsh:Yeah.

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:Honestly. And we rub our hands and we start planning to expand in Europe because what we see, if European politicians have a plan to limit the growth of European airlines, of European aviation, they wouldn't have done better. You look at every single aspect of their view of what aviation does. I mean, we learned from Europe having aviation as a force for good, building bridges, as an important lever for economic growth. But the Europeans forgot about it and they started to act. You know, I've been in the industry for 46 years. Like Willie. And I've seen throughout the time Europe talking about the single aviation sky. Okay.

Richard Quest:Oh, we're coming back to that later. Don't worry.

Iacopo Prissinotti:We're coming.

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:Yeah, they are talking about so many things that they never do.

Richard Quest:When you speak to the national providers and you speak to the APSs, is it a bit like hitting your head against a brick wall sometimes?

Iacopo Prissinotti:Well, allow me first, can I just jump in on what Willie was saying, which I think is very, very important? I would not hide also behind the political dimension and the regulatory dimension. I think we as an industry have a fundamental role to play. And I think the pressure that the airlines can put, because I'm coming to your question.

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:Sure.

Iacopo Prissinotti:The pressure that the airlines can put on the system is very high. As EUROCONTROL, you know, we coordinate all the operational stakeholders.

Richard Quest:When you say the pressure they can put on the system, you mean the operational or the political?

Iacopo Prissinotti:Both. Both, because we are now, I think since a couple of years, having a more executive leadership participation of the airlines in the discussions. And in these discussions, which then stem into the operational preparation of the works, the pressure which we see looking a little bit at the glass half full, is starting to create the right precedent for what Willie was saying before, the NSPs not being too active.

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:Right.

Iacopo Prissinotti:Okay. Now, when I come to your answer, sometimes the feeling of being very difficult is there. Let me rephrase you a little bit. But nevertheless, nevertheless, there is something we need to all acknowledge. The vast majority, I would say 80-85% of the air navigation service provider is delivering. what is needed and sometimes also taking traffic from the ones who are not delivering. That's why I insist there's no local problem. We have 2 or 3 NSPs who are not delivering and we need to get everyone to deliver. Otherwise, it's going to be, as of your first question, it's going to be very bad. So in our plans, it's going to be potentially decent, but we need to get everybody to deliver.

Richard Quest:We'll come back to this in a moment. I want to turn— I was at the Airlines for Europe conference in Brussels.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:You were.

Richard Quest:And I felt a fool because I spent one of the panels questioning hardly— everybody was on about SAF. Everybody was on about SAF there, and the mandate's wrong, and we'll never have enough SAF, and there's not enough SAF, and SAF can't be created. And then the— so after it was all finished, I walked outside And a couple of the operators in the SAF project said to me, well, they had you then, Quest, didn't they? I said, what do you mean? They said, there's more than enough SAF. There'll be plenty of SAF, maybe not the right sort of type, but there will be plenty of SAF to meet the— So I turned to the next person and I said, somebody's just told me that there's going to be enough SAF. And they said, yes, the airlines won't want to admit it 'cause they've gotta pay too much for it. But there's plenty of SAF around. There is no shortage of SAF to meet the mandate. True or false, Rania?

Ourania Georgoutsakou:Depends on the report you read. I was at the SAF Congress yesterday.

Willie Walsh:False, false, false.

Richard Quest:The operator stood in front of me and said—

Iacopo Prissinotti:Very false.

Richard Quest:Sorry?

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:Very false.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:And it's beyond the point, quite frankly, because it's unaffordable. So that is the point in Europe. When you make yourself a mandate, when you legislate an ambition, which is that I want to be number one and have the most SAF and be the quickest tickets to reach net zero, and I wanted to decarbonize aviation. And then you throw a rule out to a fuel supplier and to an airline and sit back and watch for a nonexistent market and a product that costs minimum 3 to 5 times more.

Richard Quest:So why did they tell me—

Ourania Georgoutsakou:500 billion more than what we thought it would cost?

Richard Quest:Why did they tell me that there is plenty of SAF for airlines? They just, you know, and it will be available.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:It is not affordable.

Willie Walsh:If it was true, why are European airlines buying SAF in the US? You know, if there's plenty of SAF in Europe, why are they going to the US to buy SAF? They're going to the US to buy SAF because it isn't available in Europe. And that's the reality of it. So to fulfill commitments that they have made individually and collectively, they're having to buy SAF in North America to use to fulfill their commitments. So, you know, could there be enough SAF? Absolutely, there could. There's plenty of feedstock. You know, all of the conditions exist for SAF to be supplied to the industry at scale with the right support from governments. That isn't happening. It's not coordinated. All you have to do is look at the fuel companies, look at the traditional oil companies. They're not producing it at the levels that they committed to. And in fact, you know that many of them have walked away from these commitments.

Richard Quest:Mm-hmm.

Willie Walsh:Because they're being incentivized financially and politically to produce and to continue to produce fossil fuels. There's no incentive, be it financial or political, to produce SAF. And that's why we don't have enough SAF and we won't have enough SAF unless there's a change.

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:The biggest problem in that, I mean, the reason why the European airlines are buying SAF from Europe is that they are under Corsia. And in order to meet Corsia demands, they can buy SAF from the US, which has plenty of SAF. And by the way, it will be the only country which will exceed the SAF mandate quantities by 2030. But the problem is they can buy SAF from Europe, they can fulfill their Corsia requirements, they cannot fulfill their European requirements because the standard of Europe for SAF is different than the US, is different than Corsia. And therefore what happens is, if you look at these are 2 different models. One of them, why is it in the US they have excessive SAF and why in Europe they don't? I'll give you a small example. The European politicians decided that we will penalize the producers if they don't produce SAF. So what is happening today? The producers are passing on in advance the penalty plus some extra charges to the customer. It's like, you know, you're riding in a taxi and the taxi driver is actually breaking every single, you know, traffic law. But then when the tickets come, he already actually in your invoice, in your bill, you pay to the taxi not only the fare, but also the penalties that he will be accruing. So where is the incentive? The European Commission decided that we put penalties so that to incentivize producers. The Americans actually decided to do it the other way around, putting incentives to the producers to deliver stuff. This is why US is delivering more than what is required and Europe is not delivering.

Richard Quest:Before I come to you, Ronnie, is the— if there was an Some form of mechanism that the Corsia SAF can be regarded, can be accounted for within the European trading system and within the European mandate. Would that help greatly if the 2 systems managed to—

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:Absolutely. Provided the Europeans do not insist on it's our standards or no standards. I mean, let's go back to the basics. Is it the objective? Is it to produce SAF? or to reduce emissions? If it is to reduce emissions, then actually, why should you care how the reduction of emissions is done as long as it is credible and authenticated properly? If an airline buys SAF, which is 10% lower in emissions, all right?

Richard Quest:Right.

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:Why not credit that to the airline? Because they are reducing emissions. No, the European politicians decided that SAF is according to our standards. And EUAs, for instance, or the way to actually comply with the EU ETS, you buy credits only from the European Union. You can't buy it under any other program. The European Union credits are $100 apiece. Outside, it's $20.

Richard Quest:Ourania.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:I guess that brings us back fundamentally to the— how do you go political will and going back to pro-growth? I had a commissioner come to the summit that you were at as well, Richard. He's in charge of sustainable transport and tourism. He's a fellow Greek who completely gets connectivity and has been managing territory and growing his territory for the past 8 to 10 years. He said that decarbonization cannot become a competitive disadvantage for European airlines and it cannot become a competitive disadvantage for Europe. So with that kind of political language translated into political will, so mechanisms that will bridge that cost difference and help uptake more SAF, we could get there. The biggest obstacle to uptake of SAF today is the price.

Willie Walsh:But this, you know, the combination of those 2 comments is very important, because if Europe is uncompetitive because of the rules they apply, the answer is not to force everybody or to try and force everybody to work to your rules. The answer is to change your rules to work with everybody. And that's the problem with Europe. And that's what the Draghi report said. Europe has to be—

Richard Quest:Take a drink. We have a rule on Quest Means Business. Every European politician, everybody quotes the Draghi report as if it's from the tablets of stone. Draghi this, but nobody's doing anything about it.

Willie Walsh:But that's why we have to continue to put pressure on, because the message is very simple. Europe has been focused on competition within Europe at the expense of Europe competing with the world. And therefore, the answer is Europe has got to look outside at what others are doing and to learn from others rather than continuing to try and teach everybody how to operate according to European rules.

Iacopo Prissinotti:Yeah, and I will just simply support what Willie has said. We need to continue to put the high-level pressure. EUROCONTROL as an organization, we support, we coordinate, we do all the work with the Emission Trading Scheme to provide all the data and so on and so forth. But also on our side, we are pushing strongly to support this kind of rebalancing, let me put it this way, because it's absolutely fundamental to ensure that. Again, environment is about this. It's about the performance of the trajectories. Again, we need to improve the way because with that, we will not have solved the problem of the trajectory.

Richard Quest:Can I ask, one of the things that have always puzzled me is why don't either through the organizations that you represent, or indeed the airline CEOs, the top 3 from the group or top 5 of the top 5 groups, go and see the commissioners or the prime ministers or the presidents and look them in the eye and say, you fuck with us anymore and you don't sort this out, you're going to seriously regret it when we start to cancel flights in your most important electoral districts. In other words, do what the Big 3 do in the US.

Willie Walsh:Anti-competitive.

Richard Quest:Not if everybody goes together.

Willie Walsh:No, but that's the problem. You know, it's always seen as then you're acting together, exploiting your competitive position in a way that is in breach of competition rules. And we have to be sensitive around that. You know, I would love— so I no longer run IAG.

Richard Quest:Right.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:So now you're happy.

Willie Walsh:The number of times I wanted to say to the other guys, let's get together and let's cancel flights.

Richard Quest:Why don't you do it? That's what I was just about to ask.

Willie Walsh:Because it's illegal, because I would be talking to my competitor and I would be breaking competition rules. And that's the reality. I'd end up in jail.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:But I don't think you need to go that far. I mean, fundamentally, if you keep regulating people out of business, then that will happen. Fundamentally, Europe becomes unattractive as a destination and European carriers lose market share. I mean, the numbers are there. We did a study. I think the cost of doing business in Europe has tripled in the past 10 years. It's at €15.5 billion in 2024, and it will double again to almost €30 billion in 2030 if nothing changes. That's without the big cost of SAF. Then we have the really expensive SAF that hits onwards after 2030. Out of that €15.5 billion of last year, there's €4.7 billion that is airspace, fragmented airspace. That's the thing that I look at and it strikes me and it kills me.

Willie Walsh:Why?

Ourania Georgoutsakou:Because if there was one rule that the EU could have adopted, adopted to bring down the cost of doing business and to reduce emissions between 7 to 10% just at the end of the year, that would have been aerospace. And yet, no, we all protect our little bit of the sky fiercely and emotionally. And here we all are today.

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:You know, a case in point of what Ourania and Willie were saying. Carsten told me— Carsten Spohr, of course— told me, he asked me a question. Do you know how many direct flights I have now to Asia? I asked him, how many? I mean, you should be able to fly a lot. He said, 2. 2 direct flights. Now, of course, his philosophy is more towards competition, but this is exactly what Willie was saying. Europe is focusing on the competition within Europe, but they are actually undermining the ability of European airlines to compete, maybe not the North Atlantic, because the North Atlantic is like a niche market for European-US airlines, but on all other markets. And actually, this is good news for Turkish, Emirates, Qatar, Etihad, and tomorrow Riyadh Air, Royal Air Maroc, and EgyptAir, and so on, and Ethiopian. All of these airlines They actually participate in the market of Europe because of the shortcomings of the European policymaking in Europe.

Iacopo Prissinotti:Yeah. And just to reconfirm what Abdul and Rania were mentioning, we don't only have a short-term problem. Summer, you asked the question, we'll do it with our clutches, we'll do it next year. But I would dare to say the train is hitting the wall by 2030.

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:The wall?

Iacopo Prissinotti:The train is hitting the wall by 2030 in the sense that the aviation infrastructure, the European one, is not going to be capable to match the demand that's coming. And we absolutely need to dramatically accelerate the technological transformation in Europe. We have all the tools. EUROCONTROL has put down a plan which has been supported by everyone. But again, the level of— how can I say— the level of intention is great. But the level of implementation is not at the same level. So one of the things we need absolutely to accelerate in order— because the equation between environment and trajectory for that 10% of impact is big. The more you don't have capacity, the more delays, the more you have an environmental impact, which is very negative. So we absolutely need to get our heads together as an industry and accelerate a number of things. On the short term, it's about ATCOS, it's about airspace design. On the medium term, it's about technology and we need to accelerate. We are too slow.

Richard Quest:At Davos in January, I had— in fact, there's so many of them, I can't remember who it was— the new commissioner or deputy commissioner or something for environment and tourism or something or other of the commission. Anyway, there's somebody that's new. They're all new.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:Most of them.

Willie Walsh:Yeah.

Richard Quest:Yeah. And he tried to tell me that, you know, how wonderful everything was, and we talked about it. But Single European Skies is— and I know everybody on the panel here agrees on the issue, but it is, is it not, the single biggest—

Willie Walsh:Scandal.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:Yes, scandal.

Richard Quest:That no amount— every time I've asked a commissioner who's usually a here today, gone tomorrow commissioner, about this, they never have a decent answer to it.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:But it's not— can I just, in their defence, it rarely happens to me in this job, but in their defence, their proposal wasn't bad. It's more the national governments who sat around and decided to scale it back to, you know, a couple of—

Willie Walsh:Yeah, but then the Commission tries to put a bow on this deal that they reached instead of saying—

Richard Quest:It wasn't very good.

Willie Walsh:Yeah, no, no, it was a failure, complete failure. It didn't achieve any of the objectives. And that's the problem. You know, you can't operate on the basis that, okay, we failed, but why don't we try and convince everybody that this was the greatest success ever? And that's Europe. You know, it was a failure. The idea that we've made any progress in the single European sky is nonsense. And people keep telling me, give it up, Willie, forget about it, it's never going to happen. And the problem is it will never happen if we give up talking about it. We've got to continue talking about it. Because it is a scandal that, you know, we have Europe imposing massive inefficiency on an industry that actually can be very efficient.

Richard Quest:So, we'll come to you in just a second. Go on, Lee.

Iacopo Prissinotti:No, no, please, as you wish.

Richard Quest:Yeah, go ahead.

Iacopo Prissinotti:Yeah, no, first of all, yeah, I want to be very pragmatic. Yes, all what has been said, it could have been the new updated regulation, the famous SES II+, could have been much more, could have been stronger. As EUROCONTROL, we have participated in the definition of that. And at that point in time, I had a real stick in my hands with this famous Chapter 4 for the network manager. Then it was a bit diluted and the stick looks more like a carrot now. But having said that, and having said that it could have been much stronger, I think it's still a fundamental tool that we as an industry need to use pragmatically to ensure that we can succeed. I will not use the excuse of a weak SES II+, and with the understanding that we will not have any updated regulation in the short term, to feel defeated. We need absolutely as an industry to use what we have and to succeed. Right.

Richard Quest:I don't know much about running— in fact, I know nothing about running an airline or indeed an air traffic control, but I do know about PR and I do know about how to get the— if every captain On every flight was told to say, ladies and gentlemen, this is the captain. I just want you to know we're going to be 32 and a half minutes longer because I can't fly direct.

Willie Walsh:Yeah.

Richard Quest:I have to go round XYZ. Now, if we had a single European sky, this flight would have been 25 minutes shorter. Your ticket would have been cheaper. I suggest you write to somebody about it. You'll find a leaflet when you get off the aircraft. If every pilot on every flight across Europe was doing that and handing out the information, why not, Willie?

Willie Walsh:Well, it's a great question, and it's even simpler than that. The latest or most recent study I saw said every flight in Europe is 49 kilometers longer than it needs to be because of the lack of a single European sky. 49 kilometers doesn't sound like a lot, but every single— on average, every single flight operating in Europe is 49 kilometers longer than it needs to be. So we're flying around an extra 49 kilometers, burning fuel over 49 kilometers, producing CO2 over 49 kilometers because of government political inaction. No technological impediment to doing it.

Richard Quest:But that's not going to change until the airlines—

Willie Walsh:Well, I think—

Richard Quest:Spend the money to tell the public about it.

Willie Walsh:Well, when is your contract up?

Ourania Georgoutsakou:Yes, we can put you on every flight recording. That's a good idea.

Willie Walsh:We've got a job for you, Richard. I've got a job for you.

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:I'll tell you something. You know, this single European sky used to be named SESAME.

Iacopo Prissinotti:Started, yeah.

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:Right? They were waiting for Alibaba to come, but he never came. Actually, I mean, there is such a mismatch between the political message and what actually is happening. You know, they introduced this SAF mandate for 2%. It is supposed to reduce emissions by 0.7%. Now you can reduce emissions immediately by 12% if you just do a single aviation.

Iacopo Prissinotti:Right. Richard, if you expect, if we expect that a magic thing would happen, that we get assessed regulation, even if we had the perfect single European sky regulation and we would imagine things would be fixed, I think we would be completely offline.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:So what can we do with what we have?

Iacopo Prissinotti:Exactly. We have to do with what we have because the regulation in the foreseeable future will not change. And we need really to get our heads together. We have a big problem and we need to solve this problem. And the only way to manage and improve the situation is by, as an industry, understanding that we need to stick together more and we need to be adapting more to what is—

Richard Quest:So I want to just move on from this, if I may. I've just— I have just booked a frequent flyer ticket with miles, round trip, transatlantic, business class. I tried to put my husband in economy, but he wasn't having any of that nonsense. And I looked at the taxes going to London, $5.60 FAA fee, $1.40, $1.60. Coming back from London, whether premium economy or business, $360.

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:Hmm.

Richard Quest:I mean, this is another problem, isn't it? Every government in Europe regards this industry as a cash cow waiting to be milked, and there's nothing seemingly that's political pressure. In fact, it comes to this question at the top: do European airlines lobby Brussels enough? US airlines do much more towards politicians to respond to their ATC.

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:Yeah.

Richard Quest:Now, I would add into that, APD in the UK, all these other issues. So take that as a question as being generally airlines pushing their political power.

Willie Walsh:Yeah, well, you have to give credit to Airlines for America. They are very effective. But political lobbying in the US is very different to political lobbying in Europe. You know, political lobbying in the US is an industry. Lobbying in the US is an industry. And money talks in the US. And that's the way it works. Europe, operates to a different system. It is much more difficult to lobby in Europe than it is in the US, and that's not taking away from the effectiveness of Airlines for America. I think they've done a fantastic job defending the industry there. And to demonstrate that, just look at the financial support that the US government, the Trump administration first time round, gave to the US industry during COVID and compare that to the financial support that European What about at the national level?

Ourania Georgoutsakou:But that is the problem in Europe. Europe does not— you were saying that earlier. There's no— who do you call in Europe, as goes the famous quote? And that does not exist in Europe. We don't have that system. The system today is you go to all these different countries in all these different languages.

Richard Quest:But you had that problem, you had that, Willie, when you were head of BA, where you would have to go to the government.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:Yeah.

Richard Quest:Were they listening?

Willie Walsh:Well, to be fair, I think the UK government did listen. You know, they didn't address APD, you know, but they always were prepared to open the door and listen to your arguments. And in many cases, actually, they understood the arguments. And you heard some people on the panels yesterday saying the way the UK government is responding to environmental issues and supporting the industry for the development of SAF. So, you know, it does, it does depend. And again, you know, as I said, I'm proud to be European, but I think Europe has got to operate in a different way.

Iacopo Prissinotti:Yeah, and I would confirm there's a lot of— EUROCONTROL is made of 42 member states. We're governed by 42 member states of Europe, more than the EU, including UK and Türkiye. And we see that divergence. We often see that there's not an aligned work. And the effort we make as EUROCONTROL is to try to really to bring it aligned and to push for all these major dossiers. More pressure, I think what you're heading to, I think, is the answer. I think we need to really put more and more pressure in the system.

Richard Quest:It's the opposite for you though, isn't it? I mean, in your part of the world, the airlines do have to—

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:180 degrees.

Iacopo Prissinotti:Yeah.

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:180 degrees.

Richard Quest:Yeah, but by the same token, the opposite to that point of view, I'm just going to defend it a little bit. You know, in your part of the world, you can run a flight over houses at 3 o'clock in the morning. There's not the same pressure.

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:You wouldn't have some kids—

Richard Quest:If you want to build a runway, well, move those houses out of the way.

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:But you know what? When I talk to European airline CEOs, I feel a sense of despair from addressing regulators. This is, I mean, their main focus is to address competition, which is coming from the outside of the region, which granted, rightly so. When I actually discuss it with them and say, Right. But the problem lies with your regulators. Those airlines are trying to make the best out of it, which is something you would do if you were in their place. So why not the regulators? And consistently, the answer is always, they wouldn't listen to us. I mean, and Europe ultimately, I mean, look, Willie, you are going to do an excellent investment by going into—

Iacopo Prissinotti:ETS.

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:you know, wine producing. You know why? Because in 3, 4 years' time, we will need all the wine you will get produced out of your vineyard in order for us to deal with the stresses of the European regulators putting on the aviation industry.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:Yeah, that was the best.

Richard Quest:I think he's about to invest in your vineyard along with everybody else. As we come to Towards the end here, the— you once said to me, Willie, when I interviewed you, when you were head of Airways, you said, Richard, you and I will both have retired by the time they build a 3rd runway at Heathrow, even if they ever do. Does the panel think that they will still be alive when single European skies finally comes into fruition? Start with you, Abdi.

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Not even in the days of my children.

Richard Quest:Yeah. You're in control.

Iacopo Prissinotti:I'm positive. I'm a positive person by nature. So I hope I will be alive. Maybe I will be 150 years old, but I hope I will be alive. No, jokes apart, I think it's on us. It's on us. Single European Sky is not about regulation. It's about the cultural maturity of all the industry to understand Did you just say cultural maturity?

Ourania Georgoutsakou:Yeah.

Richard Quest:In the same sentence with aviation?

Iacopo Prissinotti:Yeah, yeah, because I think we need to do that. And I think we absolutely need as an industry, and when I say industry, it's airlines, it's airports, it's ground handlers, it's ANSPs, to really mature the understanding that for the sake of the local businesses of each and everyone, we really need to move ourselves.

Richard Quest:Ourania, you are relatively new to the industry.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:I'm going to die trying, Richard.

Richard Quest:Sorry?

Ourania Georgoutsakou:I'm going to die trying is the answer to that one.

Richard Quest:There's a wall over there, just go and hit your head against it.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:Exactly. But I have, you see the bump? It's new. It wasn't here 4 years ago. And building on maturity, something needs to change. We have to stop doing things the same way.

Richard Quest:Isn't that the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing, expecting a different result.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:Yes. And it's a waste of time and energy and mental health.

Willie Walsh:Well, we're not all mad yet. So, you know, I think we can't give up on the single European sky. And I don't expect to see it. Certainly, I will be retired before we see the single European sky. I can say that with confidence. But, you know, we can't give up. And whoever takes over from all of us has to continue. It's too important, Richard. It is too important.

Iacopo Prissinotti:Yeah, he's fully right.

Willie Walsh:You know, there was a question in there about short-haul flying, you know, this concept. And you may have heard me say it yesterday. If we stopped all short-haul flying in Europe, we save 3.8% of the CO2. Single European sky, 12%. Yeah, and we need to realize that. People think the solution is let's stop short-haul flying and we'll celebrate the fact that we've just fucked the economies of Europe and everybody that has had the fantastic advantage of connectivity that aviation gets. And they'll say, well, look what we saved, 3.8% of CO2. And this is the scandal because you'll get politicians being cheered and maybe even reelected because they take decisions like that. And nobody will say, but what about the 12% that you guys are wasting every year? That's what we can't give up.

Richard Quest:Where are you going on holiday this year? Because he will take a note to make sure that your flight—

Iacopo Prissinotti:On my black book.

Richard Quest:Where are you going on holiday?

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:Well, actually, I'm planning to come back to Greece.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:Forever.

Richard Quest:You creep.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:Objectively, sir.

Willie Walsh:I'm driving to Italy.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:Driving to—

Willie Walsh:From Geneva.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:Okay, then.

Richard Quest:I was going to say driving to— you have to go and press the grapes.

Iacopo Prissinotti:Yeah, yeah.

Ourania Georgoutsakou:So Greece, obviously. Where else?

Iacopo Prissinotti:I'm an old Italian. I'm flying to Spain.

Richard Quest:I'm not telling you it, but I'll tell you where I'm going to go when I get there. Ladies and gentlemen, our fantastic panel.

Iacopo Prissinotti:Thank you.

Abdul Wahab Teffaha:Thank you very much.

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