What Are The Secrets To Attracting The Top Inbound Markets?

Transcript

Bob Cain:Okay, it's a bit like nighttime television. I feel like we should give away a car or something. Okay, I'd like to introduce the panel. Nathan Harding is Chairman of Tourism WA and Group Managing Director of Discover Australia Holidays. Welcome.

John O’Sullivan:Thank you.

Bob Cain:John O'Sullivan is Tourism Australia's Managing Director, so welcome, John. And South Australia Tourism Commission Chief Executive Rodney Harrex. So I think all known to you all, and we've got key players in the industry. I just wanted to start by making a couple of observations about a couple of areas of inbound, and then I'll ask the panellists to speak for a few minutes each about what they think is important in the context of inbound tourism. And then we'll hand over to the audience for questions. Just a couple of things I wanted to say. One was growth context. So if we think about markets, which ones are important, one way to think about them is which ones are important in a growth context. Now we're talking— Tourism Research Australia is talking about 6% growth a year for visitors over the next 5 years. That's higher than we've experienced in the immediate past, in the past 10 years anyway, and I think it's a realistic number. But if we break that number down, it means that most of our markets have to grow significantly, but in particular, something like, if we just take the holiday component, something like a third of that, or to 40% of it, will be China. So China becomes the market that is most important from that growth perspective.

Nathan Harding:Thank you.

Bob Cain:And by the way, if I was to look at the forecasts for Europe, for the UK, for Canada, I think I'd find the same sort of result. New Zealand, for example, also has its— about 34% is China. So that's just of the growth. Then we get the US, about 11%, New Zealand, 9%, Japan, 5%, Malaysia, 4%, India, 3%, UK and Europe, 7% in aggregate. So you can see that we've got a big player and then a number of significant other players. And so that's the growth perspective. The other thing I looked at was repeat visitation. Achieving some of those numbers is easier the more we can get repeat visitors from some of those markets. And with New Zealand visitors included, the number of repeat visitors has increased from 46% of the market 10 years ago to 48%. It's increased, but not significantly. If we take New Zealand out of that, though, the increase is from 37% to 42%. So that's a bit more significant. And in 2017, they range from the high-repeat visitor markets, such as New Zealand, Singapore, Indonesia, and Malaysia, to the lower-repeat markets, that are largely European, North American, and in Asia, China, Korea, and India. So they're relatively low. Northeast Asia, though, has increased significantly, and so has North America over the decade. So I think in terms of repeat visitation, if we could increase the repeat visitation for markets such as China, that would get us a long way towards achieving some of these inbound forecasts. The third thing I want to say, and the final point, is about dispersal. It's a bit of an issue that comes up politically from time to time. It's quite important in terms of employment in some regions of Australia. And of course, it depends a bit on the length of stay and the interests of the visitor. Again, I'm just talking about holiday visitors. And what we find around Australia is the markets with the greatest dispersal characteristics include the UK and Europe. Now, they are markets that have long holiday periods, and where their residents love to travel to outback Australia and different parts of Australia. North America, China, and India are mid-range in terms of their interest or the number of regions they visit. The USA is an interesting one. Obviously, we've got some limitations there in terms of their recreational leave entitlements, et cetera. But China and India, it's interesting that they're mid-range, not low, in terms of their dispersal. And if they are the groups amongst the faster-growing ones in the future, then that probably means we'll increase the dispersal overall. The rest of Asia and New Zealand is relatively low in terms of dispersal. So as we go forward, it'll be the mix of markets that significantly influences the outcome in terms of those characteristics. So I just wanted to make those observations. It seems to me there is no such thing as saying what are the best markets or what are the top markets. In a sense, they will vary entity to entity in the room, but I think certainly if we're talking about growth, then China is a big one, followed by India. the other markets I mentioned. But now I'll just go around and talk through to ask the panellists to give us 5 minutes of their views on these matters. Nathan, you might start.

Nathan Harding:Great, thanks, Bob. I think this session has raised a number of really important national topics, and one of them that on— for Tourism Western Australia and the state government, we've been very conscious of is the supply and demand, having enough supply to meet demand. And whilst on the East Coast there are some capacity constraints that are starting to pop up, like Sydney's hotels are getting fuller and room rates are getting more expensive, on the West Coast we have the opposite scenario where we have thousands and thousands of new hotel rooms and the price is coming down. And we see that as a really big opportunity and it's something that We've been working very hard on a strategy of ours, which is Australia's Western Gateway and Aviation Hub. So we have 2,000 hotel rooms that were added over the last couple of years, and another 2,000 will come online in the next 18 months, mostly at the very high end. Of course, it wasn't always like that in Perth. During the mining construction boom, we ran out of hotel rooms. They were expensive, often not the best quality. That caused Perth, you know, damaged the reputation of Perth quite significantly and burnt relationships with the distribution partners. Obviously we have the opposite scenario now where we have plentiful supply. I don't, well, I don't think we're at anywhere near those stages that Perth were at on the East Coast. So the concept of leisure getting squeezed out when room rates go up, because corporates will clearly pay what they need to to get the room, will always, I think, be in play. But I think for Australia there's a real opportunity, it goes to your point of repeat visitation, there's a real opportunity for Australia to be sold more like how the US is sold. So traditionally the distribution network has packaged up and sold Australia as 2 weeks and you try and cram in as much of the continent as you possibly can and you end up with a Sydney, Reef, Rock kind of experience. Whereas when we travel to the US, we might do California on one trip and we might do New York and Miami on another, maybe another part on a subsequent trip. If we encourage our partners to sell Australia more like the US, then not only does it help with dispersal around the country, and obviously states like South Australia and WA would be very beneficial, I think it also really helps with capacity constraints as they pop up around the country. Also, from Perth's and WA's perspective, I think we have a really special opportunity right now because Perth has gone through a once-in-a-100-year transformation, not only with all those hotels that I've said, but also a large number of infrastructure projects like Elizabeth Quay, the new stadium, the redevelopment of Scarborough Beach, Yagan Square, the list really goes on. And the city has really been revitalised. with an explosion in bars and restaurants. So it's almost like we have this new destination, and if you haven't been to Perth in the last year or 2, then you almost have to forget the old Perth, because Perth is a new destination for us to sell. So we've been focused really on that opportunity. We have a 2-year action plan around that, and the key part of that is our— Western Gateway and Aviation Hub strategy about attracting more direct flights from Europe, nonstop flights from Europe, and also additional direct flights from Asia. And, you know, we've been working with John and his team at TA as well on that strategy, so we're very excited about the future.

Bob Cain:Okay, thank you. John?

John O’Sullivan:Well, thanks, Bob. Good afternoon, everyone. I think what you summarised before and what Nathan touched upon is that at the moment we're going through, I think, a period of inbound tourism that, you know, we haven't seen before in terms of the country, in terms of growth. We've seen, as you said, the 6%, where if we fast forward now to where the 2020 plan would be, we're at about $130 billion out of $140 billion, which I think when the targets were set That was a pretty ambitious number to get near. So, overarching, the story is a good one. I think what's been really interesting though, from our perspective, is that whilst those numbers have been going along at, you know, a really healthy run rate, what we're seeing at the moment is quite a deal of change within that behind the scenes. We've had an unprecedented shift now in terms of the markets that are coming to Australia, and you just highlighted before You know, Australia is effectively now an Asian inbound destination. Almost 50% of the 9 million visitors that come here now are coming from the Eastern markets, and that wasn't necessarily so even 4 years ago. Within those markets, however, we're now starting to see a real shift in the type of visitor that's coming. So out of markets like China, markets out of Southeast Asia, we're seeing far more independent travellers, and with that brings different expectations, different holiday types and alike. We've also seen a massive change in how travel is distributed, and we saw on the last panel before just how much technology is really starting to impact in and around customers' and consumers' minds on how they travel and how they, importantly from our perspective, choose travel destinations. And then of course we've also seen in the recent times, we've seen that You know, the movement of people around the globe is becoming somewhat more complex than it probably has been even in the last 2 to 3 years. So that in and of itself, I think that the fact that the industry here is doing well is a good sign of how robust the sector is. And we like to describe it, you know, as a sector that was an overnight sensation that's been 50 years in the making here in Australia. I guess for us, some of the strategic challenges that we're looking at, Australia is seen as a complex destination. To Nathan's point, as part of that, the way that it's been sold in the past by the trade has been reef, rock, and bridge. As a result of that, sometimes you get a familiarity or complacency about it, and particularly out of markets like New Zealand, out of the UK, the US, that's something that we consistently now are trying to break down, and in the coming months you'll see some more activity from us, which actually seeks to take that challenge on head-on. And I think it's about also giving the travel trade and our partners new product to talk about, which is why what's happening in Perth, what's happening, you know, has also recently been happening in Adelaide, also around in parts of Queensland, particularly Brisbane and the Southeast Corridor, is really exciting for us because we can say something new, talk about something new that supplements those icons as well. So we get people coming back, and as we said before, we get regional dispersal starting to occur. Bearing in mind, though, that 46 cents in the dollar that every international visitor spends here now is actually spent in regional parts of Australia. So, and we think that dispersal from those Asian markets that you referenced, that will come over time, and we're already starting to see that, particularly with Chinese travellers, we've started to see an acceleration out of India. They're getting more adventurous, they're getting more familiar with Australia as a destination, not so worried about language, and actually now getting out there. So we think that, you know, whilst there's some complexities in the sector, we think the outlook is really strong, and the story of Australia is also really positive as well.

Bob Cain:Okay, Rodney?

Rodney Harrex:Look, for South Australia, we've in recent years really seen a shift in visitation, traditionally a Western destination, and we've seen significant growth out of Asia. In a lot of ways, we're playing catch-up with the rest of the country, to be honest, and that's presented a number of challenges for us. You know, the commencement of direct services by China Southern in December 2016, you know, it was a great partnership with the airport. The interesting thing for us though, when looking at you know, what are the options, who present the best opportunities for us in terms of direct service. You know, we had to work with, you know, our export arm of government, you know, so it was really about looking and saying, okay, how do we make this viable? It's not just about what's upstairs, it's about what goes downstairs as well. And, you know, it was a really interesting process, like, I mean, for somebody who's sort of focused on tourism to sort of bring that together. And that's really how we've looked at where the opportunities are. But importantly, what do we have as a destination? What do we deliver as a destination? Be true to what we are and not try to sort of deliver experiences that are not what we are. Look, from a regional point of view, just to put that in perspective for South Australia, about 41% of all the expenditure from the visitor economy in South Australia is in our regions, 23% of our population. So dispersal is absolutely crucial. If I look at Kangaroo Island as an example, about 64% of the economy is based on tourism. And so what that shows is that there are businesses that it's just— inbound is just core to their business. And so, you know, this is about making sure, you know, we work closely with TA about making sure we've got a balanced portfolio, whether it's the long-staying European, and what we've found is that visitation has stayed consistent, but we've seen growth out of Asia, particularly out of China. And, you know, from the announcement of services to starting was 6 months, so we had a lot of work to do to really work with our industry, make sure that they are ready to extract as much money as possible from our visitors. And so, you know, we've had to look at everything that we're doing. What we're finding is that the engagement with the consumer now is is shorter, quicker, and it's more of a transactional interaction. We're pushing out about 23,000 leads every single month to our industry. So it's how do we engage that consumer, the right consumer, and connect them with business so that that conversion is happening quickly. So yeah, we've seen a lot of change in recent years. You know, the latest data that came out, we've— from an expenditure point of view, we've grown around 18%. The national average is is 8%, so there's been inbound has— and we're seeing a shift as well, like I mean talking to the carriers, we're seeing visitors coming into Melbourne, flying out of Adelaide, so, you know, Chinese visitors are driving, you know, they're doing it at quite a pace and we've got to work out how to slow them down, but, you know, yeah, so there is a shift and to John's point, I think, you know, we'll definitely see that quite quickly.

Bob Cain:Just out of interest, are you seeing positive feedback from those Chinese visitors to the product they're looking at in South Australia?

Rodney Harrex:Yeah, look, we've had— this is where we've had to do a lot of work at a local level. Like, I mean, you know, the motels in Mount Gambier were getting absolutely pissed off from, you know, Chinese visitors loading the noodles into the kettle. And, you know, well, okay, let's actually work with them. Why don't they actually sell noodles in the room? Like, I mean, so It's been a real shift to— and we've had to do that very quickly and work with industry. You know, late-night meals, like, I mean, making sure that restaurants are there and open. So yeah, it's been a real shift in terms of, you know, getting industry ready and, you know, because the reality is visitors want to spend money. Make it easy, don't make it hard. Like, I mean, and so, you know, and they're looking for premium food experiences. There's amazing beef that comes from the southeast, why not serve that up here? You know, so that's really about being authentic and, and making sure you're true to, to what the customer wants.

John O’Sullivan:I think just on that, we, we track NPS scores across our 15 key markets, so measuring people's propensity to recommend a destination. What we find consistently across the board is that international visitors will recommend— the NPS score are higher in regional parts of the country. You know, Kangaroo Island, along with Kakadu, are the top 2. They sort of almost interchange most of the year. Ironically, you know, Sydney is actually a fair way down, a fair way down after Melbourne, after Perth, the Gold Coast, and other parts of Australia. So actually, the experience that they're getting when they go into regional parts of Australia is actually a very good one, because to Rod's point, it's that authenticity.

Rodney Harrex:Yeah.

John O’Sullivan:And that, you know, that sort of genuine experience that, let's face it, a lot of our visitors from North and Southeast of Asia probably don't get in their own backyard.

Bob Cain:Yep. The Perth direct flights to London, how are they going for WA?

Nathan Harding:So it's a daily flight, and they're selling very well. Qantas has said publicly that they're performing very well. It's actually We don't have enough seats to sell. They sell out quite quickly. So we are very keen to pursue double daily, triple daily, and to really expand that out for direct flights from Frankfurt and Paris as well. It was reported in the media recently, we've also been lobbied by the Italian government to join in lobbying Qantas for direct flights from Rome. So they're performing— the one daily flight is performing really well. I think that, you know, clearly one day almost all visitors from UK and Europe will fly nonstop direct to Australia. Hopefully most of those will hub through Perth and they'll stop off and visit beautiful Margaret River and other places.

John O’Sullivan:Talk yourself up.

Nathan Harding:But it's really about availability of aircraft on that route, so given that it's performing well, you would expect it would attract further airline investment, and whenever there are direct routes, there are always examples of significant growth in visitation as a result of the direct routes. So it's probably a, you know, a medium to longer-term strategy for us, but the flights that we do have, even though they tend to be more premium passengers, because people are prepared to pay more on those flights because they're obviously quick and direct, we're having a significant number of them that are originating from, let's say, the UK, travelling to Sydney or Melbourne, stopping off in Perth, and also Australians that are travelling from the East Coast stopping off in Perth on their way to London. So, you know, it's very early days, one daily flight, but it's performing really well.

Bob Cain:Okay, now questions? Think about it. If there aren't any straight off, I'll continue, but please put up your hand as soon as you've got one and I'll cut across. What do you think, and I'll ask this of the panel generally, what do you think we need to do better in than we're doing now if we're to achieve the sort of targets that John sets, or that the forecasts that TRA provides, etc.? What sorts of things? Where do we need to lift our game? You don't need to be specific about a region or a part of Australia, but what aspect?

John O’Sullivan:Oh, look, well, I think there are things that's already been recognised by various levels of government and industry. There's obviously been a major focus in the last, in the last 4 to 5 years, even probably a bit longer, on base infrastructure, in particular new accommodation, but also now increasingly the focus is on investment attraction into regional Australia for accommodation and also attractions and experiences. That goes to the second point. It's about continuing to refresh the story of Australia in the minds of customers offshore, which I think is really important. You know, there's a lot of choices out there at the moment. You know, if you take China, for example, there are 189 other destinations that are competing for the share of wallet in that market at the moment. So I think it's about that. I think Australia— I think one of the biggest strategic challenges we have as an industry now is, and this is across the planet, is the labour supply. Labour supply goes to service, goes to that MPA, experience, which goes back to repeat visitation and customers recommending a destination to their friends, which is more valuable than any advertising that the 3 of us can do in a market. And I just think breaking down Australia's complexity as a destination is also a really important thing for us to get right. So I think from our perspective, those Those would be 4 things that we need to continually improve in.

Bob Cain:Okay.

Rodney Harrex:Look, and I'd agree with John's comments. The other one that I would sort of really emphasise there is staffing at a regional level. Getting skilled staff in regional Australia is a major challenge. And as the visitors are growing and getting out more, getting skilled— the skilled workforce out into regional Australia is presenting a real challenge.

Bob Cain:Yeah, okay, that actually seems to feed in quite well to, potentially, to governments that seek to get regional employment levels up, etc. So in a sense, it seems to me feeds into a kind of national strategy potentially.

Rodney Harrex:Look, I think what's interesting, like, we've seen growth in South Australia at a regional level in employment, so regional jobs have gone up 2,000. But the reality is population in regional South Australia has actually stayed flat. So what it's showing is that there is take-up, but it's the ability to actually expand further, that's the real challenge.

John O’Sullivan:I mean, the other thing as well is it's a cultural change here in Australia. I mean, you are now— you know, we've seen a shift in our economy and the types of industries that have been prominent. Obviously, resources is huge. We've seen, you know, manufacturing being— going through massive change, and you're now starting to really reeducate a whole generation of people that hospitality travel is actually a career. And that's really— that's not something you can just do overnight with a slick campaign. That gets down to curriculums. That gets into just recognition that working in here as a functions waiter isn't just necessarily your way to get through uni, which I certainly did. But now it could can be seen as a pathway to a career. And I think that's the big challenge, along with what Rodney said about the big challenge in Australia now is actually getting that through to say this is a career that you can start as the cellarman or the glassie in a pub and work your way up being an area manager in Justin Hemmes' empire or something like that.

Bob Cain:Any questions yet? Okay, let me ask you about India. Anyone can talk this through, obviously John has views on it, but how important is India now and how important will it become in the next 5 years versus the next 10 years for Australian tourism?

Nathan Harding:So, I mean, I can probably start. We currently are not active in India, but we see India as a massive market. medium-term market, and we're starting to turn some attention to India. In fact, there's a delegation going up to speak shortly, going up next month to speak with a range of airlines and others around that. And, you know, Perth obviously has a geographical advantage with India and the Indian market, so we see some strategic alignment, but I don't think it's going to be a short-term, you know, turn the tap on of visitors, holiday visitors. A lot of the visitation that we currently get is VFR and around education, so the leisure piece I think is a little bit more challenging to unlock, but I think it's something that we have to do, and it's a medium-term play I think.

Bob Cain:Medium-term, you mean 3, 5 years?

Nathan Harding:Probably 5 years, yeah.

John O’Sullivan:Well, I mean, look, from our perspective, currently it's one of those markets that, you know, it's about 300,000 visitors, so in and of itself it's not a huge market like China. But what's interesting about it is that it's growing faster than any of our major markets, and its visitor mix is changing quite markedly, and a lot of that was sparked by Cricket World Cup in 2015, when a whole new consumer set got to experience Australia in a different way. different way. By 2030, it'll be one of our top— it'll be one of our top 5 markets, we believe, and along with China and the US, will probably account by 2030 for about 40%. Those 3 markets will account for 40% of the total of what we think roughly will be anywhere between 15 and 16 million consumers. And, you know, so from our point of view, we classify it as a future star.

Rodney Harrex:Okay.

John O’Sullivan:We'll continue to overinvest in that market. Any airline out there, we'd love to talk to you about some direct services, which we think is key to unlocking that market. But, you know, we also understand that it, you know, it is a tough market from an aviation perspective to crack.

Rodney Harrex:Look, we're consistent with Western Australia, sort of medium term. There's no doubt about it that the Adelaide Oval is a huge catalyst. It's quite remarkable. When you talk to the Oval, the level of visitation that we get, how many of the Indians are actually coming through and experiencing that? So look, yeah, for us, we have a person based in the TA office, that works well for us, and there's a modest investment there.

Bob Cain:From South Australia's perspective, we could probably do a case study on the impact of direct international services versus people coming indirectly via other ports and domestic services. How important do you think quantitatively the direct services have been that you've got?

Rodney Harrex:Absolutely phenomenal. Like, I mean, we wouldn't be experiencing the growth. The reality is when we see visitation come through the eastern seaboard, as an example, the fact is those visitors will chop nights off South Australia. So the fact is they come through, they'll stay on the eastern longer, and then we'll get the back end. And, you know, as the travel agent is selling, you know, oh, you'll have to do this, you have to do this, and then we get squeezed at the end. So the fact is we need that direct service, you know, and we look at the moment, like, I mean, we're well serviced sort of everywhere with the exception of North America. That's our one key gap. And what we do is we're looking at the data, and the fact is, you know, There are definitely, you know, it's being stalled through the East Coast. We're working closely with Air New Zealand, as an example, to sort of drive traffic, who are doing the dual New Zealand-Australia. So Air New Zealand operate a good capacity through to Adelaide, so we're working on that. But, you know, our gap is definitely North America. So we've seen phenomenal benefit when we've had that growth, and, you know, we need the US. Thank you.

Nathan Harding:So we've been very aggressive in that space, particularly over recent months. And, you know, for Perth, we've got a quarter of the world's population is in our time zone. Jakarta is closer to Perth than Sydney. So from markets like Singapore and Malaysia, out of all visitors to Australia, we get about 25-30% market share. For China, it's only about 5%. So we're—

John O’Sullivan:5%?

Nathan Harding:You know, sort of insignificant really in the China market at the moment. That's something that we are working very hard to address with direct flights from Shanghai, increasing the service from Guangzhou, for example. We're working very hard on direct services from Tokyo and other locations. So we're incredibly aggressive in that space, and we see the additional hotel rooms that we have coming on, particularly that, you know, very—

Rodney Harrex:Yeah.

Nathan Harding:high end, and combine that with additional aviation, for us is really the simple— simplest strategy and the simplest way forward to unlock what potential we have.

Bob Cain:Okay, and how important are low-cost carriers to the strategies for inbound tourism?

Nathan Harding:I think it depends on the duration of the flight and the market. So obviously different markets operate in different ways, and we've seen from Malaysia, for example, you know, low-cost carriers in that market when they come on have just really turned on the tap for us. We now have more Malaysians visiting Perth than visit Sydney, for example, so it's really just turned on a huge volume. The same with Singapore and Scoot and others, but I think it really does depend on the market and the consumer within that market, so I think it's probably a different OK. Anyone else?

John O’Sullivan:Oh, look, we, we're very excited about low-cost carriers, and we're also very excited to look at, you know, where a lot of the aircraft orders are tracking to, particularly out of South and Southeast Asia. The aircraft orders are on, on the books out of that market. I think for us, we take the view that that's their business model as a business. It's not necessarily the customer that they bring. So, and it's, it's a very different business model. people becoming time poor, more direct services are more important. If these airlines can do that, that maybe legacy carriers can't, then that's, that's great for the destination.

Bob Cain:From your viewpoint?

Rodney Harrex:Oh, look, we, we have one low-cost carrier, it's predominantly outbound, it's Jetstar through to Bali. We, we had AirAsia X for a short period, they went through a sort of global rationalisation, they'd only been to Adelaide for short while, we saw the Malaysia market grow by 48%.

Bob Cain:Wow.

Rodney Harrex:So I guess the reality is as well though, you need to look at what's the mix in terms of business, because the fact is, you know, our traditional carriers like Singapore and Malaysia, you know, offer us a whole range of options in terms of export. So we've got to, you know, in terms of our population size, we've got to make sure we've got the right balance in terms of not butchering the others, because the fact is we want sustained service. Singapore Airlines have been servicing Adelaide for 34 years, like, I mean, so that, you know, they're one of the longest carriers. So it's about making sure you've, you've got the right mix to fill it, both inbound and outbound.

Bob Cain:LCCs do seem to make a contribution to people's willingness to return to destinations, because obviously they lower the price and it doesn't look as expensive to get back there anymore. So, so I guess it's helpful in that context. Anything in terms of digital social media type links now that didn't exist years ago that you're using to attract visitors to Australia?

John O’Sullivan:Well, I think from our perspective, the big change has been out of China. I mean, we now are far— we've always been very strong with Facebook and Instagram and and to a lesser extent, Twitter. But for us, it's been really around China, particularly, and the platforms in there— WeChat, Weibo, Nice, and others. And for us, again, this market is a prolific user of social media, not just for sharing of photos, but for recommendations, for rating destinations. The Chinese are the biggest users of self-rating digital tools. So for us, it's a really important part of telling the story in a very authentic way. I mean, social content's much better content than any advertising agency can give you, far less expensive, and you don't pay for depreciation for years afterwards. It's great.

Rodney Harrex:Yeah, consistent for us as well. Like, I mean, using ambassadors to get that cut-through. We appointed a gentleman, HXM, Guang Xiaoming, In China, we've been working with Tourism Australia on it, 54 million followers. He's got the credibility, like, I mean, so he gets that cut-through, he gets the engagement, and as a new destination in China, that's what we need. We need that cut-through, and we need that engagement as a destination. We don't have a Harbour Bridge, we don't have an Opera House, we need to have a deeper, richer conversation with our target audience. So digital allows us to do that.

Bob Cain:Yeah.

Rodney Harrex:But importantly, connecting it then to the business, commercialising that interaction.

Nathan Harding:Yeah, and I was going to say the other side to that is data and being data-first and being able to have that audience and perhaps share the audience as well with partners to be able to convert. So the two go together.

John O’Sullivan:And in fact, the data is probably the more important part, to be frank. I mean, the social media is fantastic, but it's actually the data of our partners, and the data that we're getting through our platforms that allow you to retarget and get that message out.

Bob Cain:To be more specific about your targets and who you're marketing to?

John O’Sullivan:Well, yeah, if we know someone's booked a trip to Adelaide and they're going on to Perth, we're not going to serve them up imagery of the Gold Coast, right? Because they don't want it, and they'll switch off. So it's really important for us to do that now.

Bob Cain:OK. Last chance. Okay, which are the markets that, just quickly, that we shouldn't be taking for granted? Obviously India and China are going to get your attention because they're big and they're growing, but which markets concern you a bit that we might take our eye off the ball?

Nathan Harding:So I can probably start maybe a little bit the other way around. I think over time we need— Australia needs to remain focused on high-yield visitation, and I think that we need to set the examples around the world of overtourism, and what Australia is and has as a product will get ruined if we have overtourism. So I know that's a focus of TA, is more so in that higher-end, high yield, and I think that that's something that we, across markets, we have to be very conscious of. And again, it's a medium to long-term play.

John O’Sullivan:I think for us Australians holidaying at home, is something that we always just need to be conscious of. I think they're a market in our own backyard, and probably the international airlines won't want to hear me saying that. But the other market for us that I think we also need to make sure we don't take for granted, and that's all of us, is also New Zealand. Because it is our— It is as big as China in number of visitors. Their spend is different, but it's also important.

Rodney Harrex:I think the other one on top of all of that is the corporate sector segment as well. So, you know, conferencing, you know, the business events sector, absolutely crucial, because they come, they experience, and then they come back with family. And I'm going to take the opportunity of a plug, World Routes next year in Adelaide, in partnership with Tourism Australia. But I just think it's an important opportunity in terms of that sector And it allows you to sort of showcase your destination and open it up.

Bob Cain:OK, well, thank you. We're getting a flashing light. The time is up. So thank you very much to the panel. Thank you.

John O’Sullivan:Thank you.

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