The post-pandemic industrial relations landscape – high wages or more strikes or both?

Transcript

Manish Raniga:Thanks a lot, Marco. Good morning, everybody. My name is Manish Raniga. I work for 777 Partners, and we are the, the owner and the operator of new airline Bonza in Australia, so something that we're extremely proud of. I'm joined here today by my esteemed colleagues. So to the right of me, we've got Tony Lucas, who's the President of the Australian and International We've also got James Goodwin, CEO of the Australian Association of Airports, and we also have Teri O'Toole, Secretary of the Flight Attendant Association of Australia. Thank you very much. Today we have got a firecracker of a topic. So the post-pandemic industrial relations landscape, higher wages or more strikes? So Ooh, lots to talk about there. But seriously, when we look at post-pandemic and we look at all of the challenges that we've all faced as an industry in terms of coming out, rebuilding an industry that we absolutely love, but at the same time we've seen an exodus of a lot of talented people, we really struggled as an industry, you know, both in terms of shortage of staff, shortage of skills, and certainly that landscape is ever-evolving and shifting as well. And so I think, you know, It would be really great if we just sort of, you know, jump straight into it. And so, look, Tony, from your perspective, what's your sort of take on what's taken place since the pandemic?

Tony Lucas:Yeah, look, a couple of things. First of all, there may have been more than one Qantas person here at dinner last night, but I think I was the only person prepared to admit it. So there are a few others in the room. Look, it's an interesting— aviation is the ultimate team sport. And those in the room are very familiar with this, but a lot of people who are outside the industry don't. And there are multitudes of teams that come together in a very synchronised way in order to do what we do in terms of moving people between point A and point B. And here we've got ground staff, airports, ground handlers, flight attendants, and the pilots, a kind of the culmination of that process and getting people between point A and point B. And as a team sport, you know, the most critical part of that is the people that you've got doing the job. And getting the right people into the job is important. And then the next part, the training of those people, the experience that they bring to the table. And finally, to turn a good team into a great team is kind of the relationship between that team and the broader team structure. So I think when those things are contextualised, it, it, it comes back to that focus on the individuals within the team and the, the selection of those people, the training them. That determines how successful any of those individual teams are. What we've seen through the pandemic and the issue that we need to deal with at the moment is those teams have been decimated right across the board. Uh, we've lost experience, uh, we've lost, in some respects, access to the right people. And to put it mildly, the relationship between those teams and the wider team, the industrial relations sphere, probably isn't in the place where it should be. I'll leave that there for the moment. We might revisit that one.

Manish Raniga:Sounds good. James, what's your take?

James Goodwin:Well, I think there's been a lot of discussion over the past day or so about how hard the aviation sector has, has done it during COVID And, and, and beyond. But I think the people that have worked in the sector have done it tougher, and they need to be recognized for that and need to be thanked and, and really appreciate the work that everyone's done. But we know that at airports during the pandemic, we lost about 30% of the workforce. Another 30% were either stood down or furloughed, and then about another 20% on that were placed on reduced hours. So quite a tough period for them and quite a challenge to get people back. But we know that there are challenges at different airports. We've done some work with our member airports, and we represent 340 airports and aerodromes across the country. And it's interesting that at those smaller regional remote airports, the challenge to attract people back and to get people back into the aviation sector was really not necessarily related to aviation. There were so many competing sectors that were also trying to fill workers in their workforce. So the competing sectors of mining, and then also housing affordability and housing accessibility. So in many regional or coastal areas, people might have been offered a job, but they couldn't find a house to live in. And so that's really a challenge. And I'd have to say that I didn't expect that the Airports Association would need to have a policy on housing affordability. But we do, because that's quite important in affecting aviation. At those mid-size airports, the challenge is some of the structures that they might have. A lot of mid-size airports might be run or managed by local government, and they have quite tight workforce and industrial relations structures. So being able to move people up a tier or a grade or so on in order to retain somebody or attract them back, can be a challenge. And then we see at the larger airports, they might have filled the workforce shortages, but the retention has been a challenge as well. So that attrition rate is, is fairly high. So what we found though was no matter what airport you were at, everybody agreed that we needed to do more to promote the sector, to promote the amazing work that you can do at the airport, and to do things to show and demonstrate those different roles. People might be able to think of a pilot or think of a flight attendant, but understanding what an airfield reporting officer is, or how do I get in to be a security screener, those are the sorts of things that we're finding the challenges. So we're doing some work there to try and promote the sector and those roles that are perhaps underwing roles and on the airfield to make sure that we're working hard to make sure that it's seen as a good and secure place to work again.

Manish Raniga:Absolutely, James, and it's something that we would love to unpack a little bit later in terms of, you know, multi-skilling and some of the things that you're initiating from an airport perspective. Teri, from a, from a flight attendant perspective, what are you seeing post-pandemic in terms of some of the strain on the workforce?

Teri O'Toole:I think the, the challenge for the airlines with cabin crew is that people went away during COVID and were paid incredibly well for their COVID jobs, They're not as quick to rush back into aviation when you miss all of your public holidays. I think people have this idea that being a flight attendant is really glamorous, same as pilots. Unfortunately, you know, you miss most family commitments. Every day is the same. There's no penalty rates for working on public holidays. And so the, the type of people that are coming back into it are more interested in Those conditions for a lot of our people, they don't work for the airline, they work for a subsidiary company. And so all of those great benefits that people have got over the years of working in aviation— for some of you in the room, you work for an airline and you get these great discounts and benefits— but if you come in under a subsidiary company, you necessarily don't get all of the same benefits. And so they're standing working on aircraft with other people that are getting paid considerably different with different conditions. And I think that that has sort of— it's sort of tarnished the role. People want to be equal. People want to be paid the same. They want to be— have the same conditions. And I think that that's probably done more damage than COVID, quite frankly, to cabin crew.

Manish Raniga:And I think that's a really interesting point. So from what I'm hearing, the notion of working in airlines and becoming a cabin crew is no longer as glamorous as what it used to be. Yeah. And are you seeing that as like a permanent shift in choices for people in their career?

Teri O'Toole:Yeah, I think when 35 years ago when I started in the role, you had nurses, teachers, you had professional people that would leave their professional careers to come into the cabin crew space, especially with the international carriers, because you got to see the world and have this incredibly incredible lifestyle. That's changed, not necessarily just with COVID but it's changed. The hours are longer, the slips are shorter, the time you get to spend in places is even less. So I think that getting them is never a problem, and anyone that works for an airline knows you put out an ad for cabin crew and you get thousands of people, but it's the quality and the retention that seems to be a real issue, because at the end of the day, as I always say, it doesn't matter how fantastic Tony's people do in an emergency to get them there, it's then the cabin crew that have to kick off, and that's when they do all their work. And so it's a first responder role, and so it's not really a service or a, you know, a service role in the sense of being, you know, a fast food worker. Sure.

Manish Raniga:Talk about, talk about quality. How has that impacted customer experience, if it has?

Teri O'Toole:Yeah, we have people that are being employed that have perhaps never eaten at a fine dining restaurant. They've probably never had that experience, and yet if they're working for Qantas in first class, they're expected to have that, that, that service standard, and it's pretty hard for some of the young people that are joining us that just don't have that experience, don't have that life experience. And so the expectations on them are quite high. So I think it's difficult.

Tony Lucas:I think if I— one of the things that I can relate to is I joined Qantas at the age of 24 as a second officer. And it wasn't unusual for me on my initial flights to and from London to be the youngest person on the crew. including all the flight attendants. And again, lots of flight attendants, coppers, nurses, teachers, professionals with a lot of experience. And these days, having now been in Qantas for 28 years, it's not unusual to fly internationally with a crew, and I'm dealing with multiple teenagers as part of the crew. With teenage kids of my own, they are a different beast to— What they used to be. But as Teri said, it's noticeable from us from an operational perspective, because issues that were once upon a time just nipped in the bud and dealt with, and dealt with very quietly and proficiently, now tend to blow up a little bit more. And that starts to introduce operational complexity into the operation. And that's where that training and experience that I mentioned before starts to come in. Training will get you a certain certain distance, but expecting 19-year-olds to deal with a lot of the things that we deal with is a hard task. And I think that's been the significant change. We've lost that experienced cohort, not just from COVID There's other reasons why that's occurred as well.

James Goodwin:Sure.

Manish Raniga:I'm going to be a little bit cheeky here, Tony. So where has the balance of power shifted Between worker and employee?

Tony Lucas:Yeah, look, it's a really good question. I think one of the things is, I think when we talk about power in relationships in terms of companies and unions and workers and all that kind of stuff, I think often we start from that discussion from the incorrect place. There's an implication that with a power relationship, That someone wins and someone loses, or that the person with the power uses that in order to win or put down the person that doesn't have the power. And so we end up in this pendulum situation where someone has the power and they bludgeon the other person around the head, and the pendulum swings back and, you know, the return of serve comes. And I think that's a really damaging way of viewing the industrial landscape. It's a really damaging way of looking at the way we should be doing business. I think one of the important things when you consider that sort of relationship is that we saw with the car manufacturers, for example, the unions in the car manufacturers had a lot of power, got some fantastic terms and conditions, right up until they killed the goose that laid the golden egg, and the car manufacturing industry from Australia disappears. Flip it round to the aviation side of things, where in probably the past couple of decades, the aviation companies have had all the power in the relationship with the pilots and the flight attendants. And terms and conditions, not necessarily for Qantas pilots, but at the subsidiary levels, your National Jets, your Network Aviations, that sort of second-tier level of aviation in the country, The terms and conditions there have become such that smart young people no longer see piloting as being a worthy career goal. The cost of entry is so significant— $150,000 to get your commercial pilot's licence— and in your first 12 months working as a casual pilot in outback Western Australia, if you fly 300 hours, you might crack $10,000. So the odds are you're working in a pub in the evening and hang around an airfield for 8 hours a day to try and get that first few hundred hours to get employed. So smart young men and women now look at this job and go, it's not worth my investment. There are better options out there. There are better things I can do with my time. And so when you talk about that power relationship, we've now got a situation where we are critically short, certainly in the US, and soon coming to Australia, we are going to get caught very short of pilots. to be able to do the job, and that's going to mean parked aeroplanes, and that is going to cost a fortune.

Manish Raniga:So Tony, just following on from that, what would be your advice to the industry in terms of how you can overcome some of these challenges and how to make becoming a pilot more attractive, and what are some of the pathways that you would explore?

Tony Lucas:Well, I think, I think the first part of it is an ideological question, that we need to understand that this needs to be a win-win relationship for for, for both the workforce and the employers. Uh, I represent about 2,500 Qantas Group pilots, and we only represent Qantas Group pilots at AIPA. And so our success is directly tied to the success of the Qantas Group. And so I've got no intention necessarily of doing anything to damage the future success of that, and nor am I interested in pricing ourselves out of the market. But it needs to be a win-win relationship. Frequently we see pilot groups being threatened with their jobs, a metaphorical gun to the head. I know people within Qantas have said to me that they don't like me using that comment. My response to them was, well, stop putting the gun to my head and I'll stop talking about it. So we're hopeful that from last week we might see a new direction in terms of that, in terms of those sorts of things. I think that's the first part. Understanding that the relationship needs to be win-win is the first part of it. The second part of it is there's a whole raft of things about the cost of entry into aviation for piloting that needs to be addressed. It has gone up far more than inflation. There's a whole bunch of statistics around that. And so I think there are some government measures that might need to be looked at in order to address some of those things— the training pipeline, the way the training is done, what's offered to trainees.

Manish Raniga:Yeah, sure. And it's certainly something that we'll, we'll talk a little bit about more later in terms of what— how the government can actually support in that area as well.

James Goodwin:I was, I was going to say that I'd like to think that the balance of— the balance is shifting more towards the consumer and the customer, that we've seen that in the past couple of weeks, uh, perhaps, that people want good service, people want a reliable flight, people want a safe flight. People want to be able to get to where they want to go reliably, quickly, and safely. And perhaps that's been a good reminder for a lot of people in the aviation sector that in fact we're only here to serve those customers and those passengers. And perhaps that's some of that shift of the dial and the balance of power somewhat in the past couple of weeks. And I think that's been very healthy for everyone.

Manish Raniga:That's a really good point because, I mean, the people have certainly spoken and the consumer has spoken.

James Goodwin:They've—

Manish Raniga:they're making choices, they're making decisions on who they want to fly with, whether they want to fly or not, other alternatives as well, based on their experience and based on what they perceive is also value for money as well. Just to shift gears here, we've had thousands of workers leave the industry permanently. What are some of the recruiting drives and what are some of the strategies that the airports are actually adopting to sort of overcome some of these challenges?

James Goodwin:Yeah, we know at the moment that most airports across, across the country are operating about 70% of the staffing level. So there are still plenty of people doing and overseeing perhaps a role or two that might have been, might have been looked after by somebody, somebody else. So there is still that recruitment drive. The capacity and the, and the passenger numbers are coming back to, to help fill those roles. But we're also, like the rest of the economy, having those challenges to recruit good people and to retain them as well. We're about 2 weeks away from launching a new campaign to really promote the sector and to revitalise those and understand those roles that you can have at an airport. So I probably shouldn't be revealing it today, but we're going to be launching something called My Airport Career, and it's going to have the aim to really explain the roles that you can do at an airport, how you start working at an airport. I often say that there are no unskilled workers at an airport, but you might be hard-pressed to find someone with a qualification. So how do you get in there? How do you, uh, how do you enter that amazing career that you can have at an airport? So that's what this, uh, this campaign is, is aiming to do. But it's also there to recognize the people who are in the sector as well, so that they can have somewhere to show family, friends, uh, what they do. And, and at the moment, we're filming some profiles. on different people. They can be reporting, airfield reporting officers, safety officers, planning people, retail, all those different areas that go into running an airport. So that's what we're going to be doing there. And hopefully when we're ready to launch it, we appreciate having the support of everyone in the room. But what we want to do is also start that conversation. So how did you start your airport career? Let me tell you how I started my airport career. And that's the aim of this campaign that we'll be launching soon. And it won't be a job site as such, but it will help you get a job or find that job that you might be interested in. And what we're aiming to do is target those school leavers and provide some resources to careers advisors and teachers so that they can understand those different roles that might be there or less understood or go unseen by the travelling public, but it's so vital to, to the aviation sector. And, and that'll be something that'll be really exciting. So we're probably about 2 weeks away, so I can't, I can't reveal too much today.

Manish Raniga:Fantastic. Well, very exciting, and it certainly brings sexy back to aviation, let's hope. Well, Teri, your perspective in terms of, you know, cabin crew. What are some of the What are some of the strategies you're adopting in terms of, you know, bringing that renewed interest, you know, back into the industry? How are you actually supporting, you know, airlines in terms of getting that enthusiasm back in and to join the sector?

Teri O'Toole:I think Tony hit on it. I think industrial relations has probably not focused enough on the second word. Like, the relation part has always been really important between the unions and the airlines, and I think Tony hit it on the head. The idea of the unions is not to bring the airlines to their knees. That's ridiculous. But it's to attract people, professional people, the right people. And if you don't want to pay, you are not going to get the right people. It's as simple as that. We've, you know, when the, you know, government puts up the minimum wage and cabin crew wages go up, you've got to ask yourself, is that okay? These are people that, as I said, miss all of public holidays.

Tony Lucas:Yeah.

Teri O'Toole:they miss time with their family, they're away for deaths of family members, marriages, births, the whole gamut of family relationships they miss. And so how do you encourage people to say, well, yes, that's part of the job, but this is the other side of the job. And I don't— just don't think, you know, I mean, the events of the last few days, if they've taught anyone anything, it's the aggressive litigation that is, is not being driven by the unions. And I'll say that again, we don't litigate aggressively. We try to make deals, we try to sit down, we try to get outcomes that are good for our people and good for the airline. And unfortunately, you know, depending on who's running, you know, the program, it can be a really aggressive you know, constant litigation. I think that the events of the last few days have really shown that. Sure.

Manish Raniga:And just pivoting from there, in terms of how you would advise airlines and employers in terms of providing meaningful pathways and alternative opportunities for cabin crew, what are some of the things that you would suggest, you know, beyond, you know, entry level, you know, coming in as a cabin crew? Obviously, you've got your hierarchy in terms of, you know, perhaps becoming a cabin manager or a supervisor, What would be your suggestions in terms of some of the pathways that you would sort of want to sort of explore to give a much more longevity in that career?

Teri O'Toole:Well, I think the same thing. Every time there's an advertisement for cabin crew, you get a lot of people. For instance, I think, you know, a lot of Virgin crew from domestic that were Virgin International have now come across to Qantas International. They wanted to fly internationally. Virgin shut the international arm of their airline down. So now they are bleeding crew and crew are coming across. across, it's kind of like stealing, you know, we're robbing from Peter to pay Paul. We're not getting, you know, who are the new people coming in? But again, I come back to if the— if, if we can sit— for me, it's just not about winning. Like, you can't win. There's got to be a medium place where parties come together, where agreements are made, EBAs are made, where, as Tony said, there's not a gun to your head. And I think one of the biggest challenges for cabin crew has been this concept of, well, if you won't do it, we'll get someone else that will, and this constant outsourcing for roles. And I think you've had that as well, Tony. I think you've had the, you know, if you don't agree to this, we'll get someone else. We've got Sunrise coming up with Qantas, for those of you who aren't aware, that those duties for crew will be up to 26 hours long. Now, I don't know anyone in this room that would have a normal shift of 20, 26 hours. How do we, how do we make that desirable, that people want to do that? How do we make it so crew go, yeah, put me down, I really want to be on an aircraft for 26 hours working? We've got to do that. And so that's where we sit down and we have these conversations and say, how will this work? What kind of rest will people get?

Tony Lucas:And it can be done, it's doable, but it can't be Manish, I think the, the word you're using there were, what are the pathways?

James Goodwin:Yeah.

Tony Lucas:And I think that's the bit that's gone missing, uh, from, uh, understanding, you know, the, the, the sharp end, if you like, of flying aircraft between point A and point B. You know, Terri talked about people leaving Virgin because there's not a pathway to international flying, and that's a part of the aviation industry they want to see. Certainly within Qantas, we see pilots that leave. I mean, Qantas is the— a Qantas pilot is generally viewed as the pinnacle of the aviation career in aviation. There's a lot of pilots that are quite comfortable not seeking that. But we see pilots leaving Jetstar Network, Virgin Australia, dare I say it, Bonza as well, because They don't see themselves flying a Fokker 100 in Western Australia for the rest of their career. They want a career that means something, particularly given the size of the investment. And until airlines can wrap their heads around that, that you're talking about people, it comes back to that thing about that team is people. And until the airlines wrap their heads around they're dealing with people who are after a career with meaning and value, and a pathway through their career to get as far as they possibly can, I think that's always going to put a lid on being able to attract the right people into the industry.

James Goodwin:I was going to say, do it probably for the— I'm asking the question here, but my observation would be we hear the society, people, politicians and so on, you can work anywhere these days. You can all work from home, we've all got flexible working hours, all those sorts of things.

Manish Raniga:Not us.

James Goodwin:You don't in aviation. So, you know, perhaps as a sector, if we already got one arm tied behind our back in recruitment and retaining people now, because if that's what people want, that is certainly not aviation. But it— I, I think watching, watching the news this morning and seeing airports full with school holidays starting, and that's fantastic, but All these people are going on holidays, but the people at the airport, the people in aviation, are not on holidays. They're servicing all those people enjoying their holidays, and that is what many of us all are here to live for. But I do think in terms of recruitment, that's one harm already tied behind our back.

Tony Lucas:I mean, it's funny, Teri and I frequently joke about the fact— and I'll tone the language down a little bit— but we frequently joke about the fact that aviation the front line of it, the airports, the flying and all that kind of stuff, it's actually a pretty crap job in terms of the time away from home, time away from family, dealing with some pretty cranky passengers at various stages, disruptions, delays. There's not many other jobs around where you can be delayed coming home for a day and not necessarily get paid anything different to what you were being paid anyway, or be delayed instead of you thought you're going to be home to pick up the kids for school at 3 o'clock. No, no, no, now you're going to be home at 10 o'clock at night. And then turn around 10 hours later and do it all again. And so in terms— again, in terms of trying to attract smart, clever young people into the industry, James is absolutely right. We've got one hand tied behind our backs already in trying to achieve that. Now the fun thing for me is that I actually really love flying, and so it makes all those other things worthwhile. My wife doesn't like the fact that I love flying so much, but I actually really love flying. And so if you love flying, then yeah, those sacrifices are worth making. But that is a challenge for the industry.

Manish Raniga:Absolutely.

Teri O'Toole:Or Instagram as well. People love to take Instagram photos of themselves in exotic places around the world. That seems to attract a lot of people.

Manish Raniga:Absolutely. Just in the essence of time, we'll move on to our last topic. And this is more talking about the public sector and how that can actually help with, you know, with skills and pipelines that is actually needed to rebuild this industry. So, Tony, you mentioned before about some of the challenges associated with even cost of even learning how to fly, and that's also— that's like right at the beginning of the cycle where it's absolutely, you know, prohibitive to actually get into the industry itself. So where do you see, you know, the role of the public sector? Where do you see the role of, you know, education institutions to help sort of evolve that, make those pathways more affordable, more accessible? In order to then kickstart and start to accelerate the industry?

Tony Lucas:Yeah, look, no easy answers to this one. Certainly the proliferation of aviation degrees has been helpful because instead of now having to fund your flying training by working full-time, as I did when I first started out, people can go to uni, they can VET help it, But that just means that after they finish their flying course and their degree, after 2 years, they're $150,000 worth of VET help. And given the earning potential over the first 5 years, there's a good chance with the current inflationary regime that they're going to be at $180,000, $190,000 debt before they even start thinking about paying anything off it. So the VET help is, is one way that it's made it a little bit easier for people to get in the industry. But again, I think the reality of that, once people are looking at it, is an issue. I think I was very lucky that I got picked up very early in my flying training. There was a shortage in the late '80s, just immediately before the pilots' dispute in '89, for those of us old enough to remember that, that Qantas paid for my cadetship. Now, at the moment, Qantas aren't paying it. They're VET helping it. But I think we're going to get to the stage where—

Teri O'Toole:Yeah.

Tony Lucas:I think airlines are going to need to think about whether or not they start considering a cadet— a paid cadetship for flying training. I think there's some economy of scales that they will get that a private student won't get at their average flying school. British Airways are starting to go down this road and looking at paid cadetships and so on. Yep, adds a fair bit to the bottom line, but I still come back to that's a lot cheaper than parking aeroplanes.

Manish Raniga:Absolutely. James?

James Goodwin:I'd say 2 things. I think we need some data and research. Government needs to help with that. We actually don't know who we are as a sector at the moment. All the reports into the workforce, whether that was shortages, age profiles, demographics, all of those sorts of things are all out of date now. They're all pre-pandemic. So having a good comprehensive set of data to understand who we are as a sector Then the second step is, is what do we do with that? It probably would surprise many that the new skills, industry skills clusters that the government has established has put aviation in with transport and logistics. We're not even a separate skills cluster in the eyes of government, and I think that's a shame, particularly with the disruption. Sure, we may not be forever, but given all the disruption that the sector has had, to be able to have designated people, dedicated people. Yes, there might be similarities to transport and logistics, but aviation is very different as well. Driving a truck on airport is different to driving a truck out on the road, all of those sorts of things. So I would really recommend we need our own designated skills cluster to be able to look at the skills training. And then what that does is helps to to professionalise the sector as well, to give those skills, those diplomas, to make sure that people have got that reward and recognition for the hard work that they do.

Manish Raniga:Is there some form of public sector support that you have for MyAirport Korea?

James Goodwin:No. And I think that's an example.

Manish Raniga:So clearly an opportunity.

James Goodwin:It's industry-led. And yes, industry knows industry. But for instance, my organisation runs training programmes. Not one of them was eligible any of the job trainer criteria during the pandemic. Everyone would need to have self-funded all of those sorts of things. I think government doesn't understand aviation enough, and that's something that we all need to work on collectively to make sure that those— either the regulators, government— they like flying. Politicians love flying. They don't necessarily like actually understanding Sure.

Manish Raniga:Teri, what sort of public sector support?

Teri O'Toole:Just touching on that, I think it's right we have a Transport Minister. It's a big portfolio. Like, aviation should be, should be sort of pulled out. I think that it's unique in the, in the challenges that it has, and it should probably sit somewhere. As, you know, Tony said, we went to a forum very, very early on when the, um, when the new government was in, and They were talking about aviation and the schools were talking, if you remember, Tony, some of the small pilot schools were saying that because the airlines are short, they steal the trainers to become pilots. Well, if you haven't got your trainers, you can't train your next generation. And so these small aviation schools were struggling to keep the trainers to train the next generation because as soon as the big airlines needed them, they would strip them out. So it was a sort of ongoing effect. And what it ends up with is we don't have them in general aviation at the beginning. You don't have them at the end. And I guess the same with cabin crew. You've got to make it a job that people stay and retain. We don't want them to come in one day and then leave the next. That's not what you need. You actually need them to stay, make a career of it.

Tony Lucas:And just to take that full circle, I'm an experienced A330 training pilot. But I can't go and train ab initio students. And again, the cost for me to do that, the barriers that the Civil Aviation Safety Authority put in order for me to be able to transfer those skills easily is very, very difficult and prohibitive and not worth my time, effort, and energy, particularly given the return that I'm going to get when I instruct a junior pilot, which is not a significant one.

Teri O'Toole:Good idea. Absolutely.

Manish Raniga:So any closing remarks, thoughts on the topic before we finish up? And I'll also give it to the audience to ask any questions.

Tony Lucas:No, look, I think, again, I think the big thing for me is that from an AIPA perspective, we're looking to work with the Qantas Group. Again, specifically, we're at Qantas Group entity. We want to work with the Qantas Group and we want to address the challenges together, because if we don't address the challenges together, then together we will fail. So that's a really important thing for us to, to be able to do.

Manish Raniga:Absolutely.

James Goodwin:I'd say people are the key, and, and we need to remind ourselves all the time about that. The people are the key— supporting them, recognizing them, and, and so on. And if you can bottle the passion that, you know, people who have been exposed to aviation have, that's what's going to get more people into the sector. And sharing those stories is what's going to attract people to the sector and hopefully keep them in it.

Teri O'Toole:I think the same. I think there needs to be a real focus on training. There needs to be a real focus on, you know, bottom lines are fantastic, but you've got to get there, you know, You've got to have a quality product. You've got to have good training for your, your people. And I think if you're— if you have the face of your airline being your cabin crew, you need to really invest in that. And I think that certainly in the Qantas Group, we've got some really good opportunities with a new CEO and, and some changes. And I think that, you know, the future's whatever it— it's bright, I think.

Manish Raniga:Absolutely. Well, we've certainly heard some wonderful insights today. To the audience, any questions that you would like to ask our panelists?

Teri O'Toole:You're scared.

Manish Raniga:Excellent. Fantastic. Thank you very much, everyone. Really appreciate it.

Tony Lucas:Thanks, Manish.

Teri O'Toole:Thank you.

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