The Asia Pacific airline workforce – Dealing with the demands of growth

Transcript

Torbjörn Karlsson:I am joined on stage today by Nasr from Malaysia Airlines and, and Carlo from, from Philippine Airlines that hopefully we're going to have a good conversation around how are we going to make everything happen that we just talked about in the last few days in terms of growth, and aircraft that are going to be delivered and continuous travel, so there are some challenges. And the great thing is about Captain Nasr and, and Carlo, both share a deep passion for working with people and solving the problems. So I think we get in on some topics around purpose and linkages back to what Airlink was talking on. So we should have a good conversation, but maybe we just kick off with you, Captain Nasr. What's, what's your thoughts on the topic in a bit of an opening statement?

Nasaruddin A. Bakar:Yeah, I think as we know at this point of time, especially this part of the region of AirPac, the industries are growing quite fast, right? And we're seeing approximately about 9% year-on-year growth. So in terms of growth, including Malaysia Airlines as well, and I was just speaking to Carlos just now, it's similar to Philippine Airlines. The airlines in general are growing in this part of the region. There are a lot of aircraft being ordered accordingly, and hence the the need of the people, the workforce, to support the growth. We have charted our growth in the next 10 years, and we're seeing approximately about 33% of increase in our fleet growth. And having said that, the need of workforce is very real. Unfortunately, Toby, I think the last, especially the post-COVID era, we're seeing that the industry is not that popular.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:Yeah.

Nasaruddin A. Bakar:Not many people wanted to join the industry. Hence, we are not spared as well. So I just leave it to Carlos to elaborate further.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:No, no, I agree with that. The growth that is being projected, and this is data from IATA, our friends in Airbus, our friends in Boeing, the growth is staggering, particularly for the Asia-Pacific region. Worldwide, they're talking about a million new aviation professionals that we will need worldwide in the next 20 years. And just for the Southeast Asia region alone, I think it accounts for about one-fourth of that, or about 250,000. Also, in terms of GDP growth, it's about— for the Asia-Pacific region, you're looking at about 65% growth in the next 20 years. I think that is Even conservative, so you can imagine the growth in terms of passenger volume. It's they're looking at about 3.8% per year in the next 20 years worldwide, but for the Asia Pacific region, it's about 4.8% per year for the next 20 years, and they're projecting that by at the end of the 20-year period. that the Asia-Pacific region will account for about half of all passengers departing from, from the Asia-Pacific region. So the growth is staggering. And I think the challenge for us is to be able to provide adequate manpower. Again, you know, you have— so the challenge is 2 things, right? One is on the OEM side. Whether we can actually provide the number of aircraft that is needed to meet the demand for the next 20 years. But more than the product, we are looking at a challenge in terms of— and I think this is more difficult— the challenge in terms of manpower, meeting that 1 million aviation professionals in the next 20 years.

Torbjörn Karlsson:Yeah, 1 million. I had a number of 400,000. I thought that was pretty bad, but I think that we're also seeing that there's a shift in how you recruit. There's also an increase in retention. I think McKinsey put out a study suggesting 73% retention rate only, so there's a lot of people leaving. But I know that both Malaysia has been emphasizing building a stronger civil aviation human capital base, Philippines CAPS has changed some of the licensing and fatigue management to try to make it easier, or change the framework. So everyone is trying to pull together on doing this, but I guess we still have to find the most realistic sources of talent to start with. And is it about building the base? Is it about hiring from others? What's your thoughts about getting the fundamentals right?

Nasaruddin A. Bakar:Right, so towards Malaysia Airlines, we were quite lucky, I would say. When we were hit by COVID, we decided not to lay off professionals. We do not lay off any of our staff, including the cabin crew, the engineers, and also the pilots. So when the, the hockey stick after post-COVID, we were quite okay in that sense. But having said that, once the growth coming in, we have to be very real in how you want to get this workforce. Generally, in Malaysia Airlines, we understand, in particular with regards to our engineers, which is the LAE and technician, where the growth of MROs in our region is quite strong. Hence, the pool of this workforce is quite limited. So these people had to leave, and they left for some other MIA MROs, which is fine because we believe that talent— we encourage talent to move around to develop their skills. But having said that, this is a problem that we have to handle ourselves. So what we did in the last 2 years is to develop our own base load internally. We created a lot of training programmes which are able to increased the number of our engineers, of our cabin crew, and also our pilots. We have created our academy in Malaysia Airlines, and also we have also our Part 147 for the engineers where we can churn out our own people. So the matter of fact is, how do we get these people to come into the industry? So we had to go down to the ground and go to all over, to the universities, to the schools and colleges and whatnot, to do the promotion, especially with regards to the industry. And we know the perception that we got, in particular with regards to the industry, is the job is not stable, right? Having said that, to put some data points, and during COVID there were about 2 million people were laid off in the airline industry alone. So hence, we cannot blame the public. So the public may not have the confidence to join the industries. So hence, what we did, especially robustly in the last 2 years and 1 year ago, were going down and doing a lot of marketing to promote the industry in itself, and we're seeing traction. We have seen our manpower has increased about 15% on our engineers. We were struggling a bit in Q4 last year because of a lot of issues. Carlos has mentioned about the OEM issues which we faced as well, including supply chain. But yeah, I think we managed to turn that around. We had about 15% of increase of workforce.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:Good.

Torbjörn Karlsson:Carlo? Yeah.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:You know, the Philippines has a very young population. We have, we have 117 million people as of 2025, but the average age is 26. So there's a lot of potential in terms of a pool for aviation personnel. The challenge, though, is that the aviation sector is not as sexy as it was in the past. And while our attrition rate as a whole, as a company, is quite low, the attrition rate for mechanics and engineers are 3 times, more than 3 times the average attrition rate for the entire company. So we definitely have a problem there. And, you know, know, it's very difficult to compete with companies in the Middle East or in the West in terms of compensation. So it's important for us to develop a pool of aviation personnel that we can tap on. Gone are the days where you just wait for them to apply and there's a steady stream of applicants. Right now, as Captain mentioned, and that is the same situation we have in the Philippines, we are now partnering with many educational institutions. We have revived the PAL Aviation School, and we've encouraged government and local government units to, you know, to establish more aviation-centered programs in existing schools. I think that's the reality is that we need to beef up our pool. And, and right now we don't have a problem as much with, with pilots and cabin crew. I think that part of the industry continues to be glamorous, less so for ground handling, less so for particularly below wing, less so for mechanics and engineers. So that's really where we need to work on. And we're working very closely with government, the national government and the local government units to ensure that there is a focus on that and that we don't lose our edge in terms of, in terms of skilled manpower. But, you know, that also gives rise to another problem because we have a huge English-speaking population. That's highly educated, highly trained, and therefore easily poachable. And again, we can't compete with the compensation that's being provided elsewhere. So it's really up to us to ensure that there is a mechanism, there is a structure, so that there is a steady flow of aviation personnel.

Nasaruddin A. Bakar:Toby, I would like to add to what Carlos was saying. We have the similar issue. We had an attrition about 9% for the engineers. And I did mention earlier on that it's okay for this talent to move around so that they can be, you know, more skillful. But having said that, those are not sustainable. It is really not sustainable.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:That's true.

Nasaruddin A. Bakar:Because it can be seen that organizations like us could be like a training school for these people, right? So I think, as I mentioned earlier on, I believe it is important for us to take the problem within ourselves And we have to resolve it internally. And yeah, maybe you could have some regulation or some policies to control those movements.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:We have the same numbers. We're seeing the same numbers. And that's a good insight. So your captain is saying it's about 9% attrition rate for engineers. From our perspective, we're seeing about 7.8% attrition rate. And we see that rising because there are We've been told that there are recruitment programs that will be coming to Manila in the next couple of months from airlines abroad.

Torbjörn Karlsson:So a quick question on that one, because there's 2 things here. One is that it sounds like both of your airlines are doing a lot to restart your internal efforts, but you touched on the government side and the government support.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:So are—

Torbjörn Karlsson:and there's no government officials here, I believe— so are they doing enough to support with the fundamentals, the basics, because you can't create students from scratch. They must have some training. There must be enough universities. So do you see that enough? And then the follow-on question was also, you're right, there are recruiting drives here, and both Philippines and Malaysia has a high English proficiency. People like to leave to go and work elsewhere. Maybe Philippines maybe more in the Middle East and Malaysia more into Europe, but the feeling there is we can also regulation allow for more sharing of talent between Malaysia and Philippines. And so say if you have a wanderlust, go and explore it, but stay within ASEAN and we coordinate it. So are those 2 potential sources, more government support to bring more educated people up and then facilitate better transfer of people across borders?

Nasaruddin A. Bakar:So basically for Malaysia as well, I'm not talking on behalf of the government, but I think the government has come into play in discussing with the industries as how we can mitigate these issues. Whether are they giving full support? They are giving support, but we are not seeing enough results as yet.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:Yeah.

Nasaruddin A. Bakar:So there will be a lot of things that they can do to assist the industry as a whole in Malaysia especially, not only with regards to the workforce, there could be other things, the likes of air traffic rights and others. So we believe engagement with the government is so important, and we are doing that very diligently. But having said that, Toby, it has to be at the global level because it involves not only within Malaysia, it involves the region and also globally. So I hope and we hope that the regulators are there to assist, at least to control the movement of all this workforce globally.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:Okay, I agree with that. I think from our perspective, The government, whether the national government or the local government units, are beginning to understand that you know that there is a need to be to support the aviation industry. I do think, however, that there's a lot more opportunity for collaboration with government. One particular issue we're having really is on the cost of the the training for pilots. It's a significant amount, and there's not a lot of people who, you know, will be able to afford that. So, you know, perhaps in the next 2 to 3 years, we'll start to see some challenges even on the pilot side. So we're trying to work with government in terms of, you know, trying to have some subsidies, some scholarships in terms of pilot training, not specifically for PAL, but for the industry. And Mike is no longer here, but we're working with— within the local industry. We have an Air Carriers Association of the Philippines. And, you know, we have resolved to work more closely with government to be able to address some of these concerns on on manpower. On, on the industry side, I think there's a, there's a lot of room, a lot of opportunity for us within the Southeast Asian region to try to collaborate among ourselves, you know, to, to at least have some framework to ensure that there's a sustainable way to address the manpower issues that we will collectively have in the next coming years, particularly with the growth that we just mentioned earlier.

Torbjörn Karlsson:Yeah, and I think both of you started touching on it, the question, does aviation have an image problem when it comes to attracting new workers? On the positive side, it's not just you. I mean, all our surveys, and we did one recently, shows that it's actually young workers are skeptical of traditional industries. So you see it in all heavy industries, and they particularly like lack of flexibility and outdated management structures. So it's interesting that you can see that the younger generation do want to have more freedom, which is perhaps also why they, they go overseas, right? And aviation tends to be a little bit rigid and a little bit hierarchical, right? And I think the research that we've done and companies like McKinsey shows that strong employer branding and purpose-driven messaging is what really has an impact. And I mean, what are your thoughts on what you are doing and what you can do to shift that perception? Because we've had conversations earlier today about AI technology. We need not more— just more workers, we need different type of workers too. So we're now beginning to compete not just with automotive manufacturing in Malaysia on the engineering side, but with Facebook on, on AI people. So how do we get the branding Right, and maybe I start with you, Captain Azhar, because I, I love that video that your MRO team did recently to get people back in. So what are your thoughts on the branding side?

Nasaruddin A. Bakar:So I think before I answer that question, I just want to put context to the audience to what he was mentioning about the pilot. When I did my training about 30 years ago, the fee was only about $15,000. Today it's tenfold.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:That's right.

Nasaruddin A. Bakar:So it's a serious issue, especially in this part of the world, to get funds Hence, we're doing exactly the same thing what Philippines are doing, and I think it's something that we really need to address as an industry. So to your question, what we're doing to attract these people, so first and foremost, we have to understand, Toby, that the Gen Z now is coming in the picture. In next 10, 15 years, they will be the biggest workforce in the organization. Hence, we have to understand what does the Gen Z like. You rightly mentioned, it's about flexibility, And because of that, you've been to our center office in Kuala Lumpur, even though we are about 70 kilometers away from Kuala Lumpur, because of the need of the Gen Z, we have to place a small office in Kuala Lumpur so that we are able to attract the people to come in to join the organization, right? So that's one of the things. Secondly is, you know, when we talk to these people and we understand that they wanted to see some future growth in their career path, And with Malaysia Airlines, we have introduced a lot of programs, one of which that we have just introduced about a year back, what I call the C2C. It means either cabin crew to chief or co-pilot to chief. So we have a clear path for all these people, whether if they're interested to go to that path as what I started the industry about 30 years ago, and I'm here today as the operating officer. But What we wanted to portray to this Gen Z especially is they have got an opportunity to see their career growth, not within only the professional of the work scope, but also on other paths, right? So we are seeing our cabin crew who are GMs in finance, who are general managers in commercial as well. So I think those are the things that we're doing to help to entice these people to join back the industry.

Torbjörn Karlsson:That's true, they're role modeling a bit, showing that it's possible.

Nasaruddin A. Bakar:Exactly. Carlo?

Carlos Luis Fernandez:So I agree with you, Toby. You mentioned, you know, certain findings that you had in terms of what the new generation wants in terms of work. We're seeing that as well, and that's coming out in our employee engagement surveys. It's about branding. It's about, you know, they're looking for professional development, mentorship, sustainability. So we've tried to address most of those in terms of branding. We've increased our footprint on LinkedIn, on social media. On the professional development side, we've done a robust structure for employee upskilling, for training. We've made use significantly of LinkedIn Learning. We have, and this was the report to me of our LinkedIn partners, that our employees in PAL had the higher rate in terms of availing of AI modules. So we give all of— we give that opportunity. We try to— part of our KRA is really on the employee engagement scores. And that drives retention. Now, we talked earlier about what is the average retention or attrition rate for our company. It's about 2%. It's quite low. And it depends on how you look at it. It can be a positive, it can be a negative. Right. But overall, we view that as something that, you know, we're doing right. And, you know, we continue to be sensitive to what the new generation wants. We hold regular surveys, regular interviews, and all of that. So I guess to some extent, we've been quite successful. Again, the challenge is not with our administrative personnel. The challenge really is in the airports and, you know, the difficult jobs. We have a very strong contact center industry in the Philippines. And many of the people who would have gone to the airline industry previously are now going into the contact centers, to the tech companies, which provide for a better work environment, better pay, I guess, a more—

Nasaruddin A. Bakar:More flexibility.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:work-life balance and all of that. So our problem really is in ground handling and in mechanics and engineers.

Torbjörn Karlsson:So the below-the-wing stuff. But it's interesting what you said about contact centres because you have something similar in Malaysia with your back office. Are you seeing that also as a significant source of taking talent away?

Nasaruddin A. Bakar:Exactly the same, exactly the same. And the method that we use is quite similar to what Karl was doing in Philippine Airlines. And I would like to link back to the— you mentioned about the purpose, right? I think both of us as a national carrier, it's important for us to ensure that we are able to give back to the nation, right? And one of the main principles of Malaysia Airlines is to become the catalyst of the country. So things that we do generally as an airline in Malaysia in particular, we have to think about how can we help the society, how can we help the public to ensure that we are able to give them job opportunities. So we go down to the ground, as I mentioned earlier on, but having said that, we're trying to not only looking at those in the urban area, but we go to the villages as well. So, and we believe those will multiply the economy in the villages, and that's very important. And we believe with that purpose, we will help not only us as a company, but also as a nation as a whole.

Torbjörn Karlsson:Yeah, actually, it's interesting because it does remind me, it's going to sound maybe a bit flippant, but We're forgetting that it's easy to recruit when you're a successful company. So financial stability, financial profits not only allows you to invest, but people want to be associated with successful organizations. So the turnaround that both of the airlines have done should help you bring people, at least reconsider their career choices. So that's good. So we know where to hire them, we know how to bring them in. Retention. You mentioned particularly You mentioned about 7% retention rates for your engineers and below-the-wing challenges. And I mean, we, we see retention is increasingly tied towards career development flexibility. Now, obviously very different. You mentioned cabin to chief, so different in management versus on the ground, but that flexibility. And we had a statistic that said 67% of employees would stay in a job they dislike if they were offered upskilling and clear advancements.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:Yeah.

Torbjörn Karlsson:Which shows that people are willing to put the hours in. And I think we've seen also that in the past we used to have a huge turnover as people chased dollars, but as the economy gets both better and worse at the same time, people value the job they have as long as they can see that they can advance. Is that something you're seeing too, and how are you investing in retention that way?

Nasaruddin A. Bakar:Yeah, so for Malaysia Airlines, as you rightly mentioned, it's important for us to be profitable, right? And once we have that enough capital, you are able to invest. So in the last 3 years, we believe in our transformation, we're doing quite well in terms of our financial number. Hence, we're investing a lot in our talent with regards to training. We're sending our people overseas for training to ensure that we can encourage this talent to enhance themselves by themselves. So not only that, not just we want to elevate them as a talent in Malaysia Airlines, but it really helps. The word of mouth that Malaysia Airlines has started sending people elsewhere for training is very important. So that portrays a good brand to the organization, and it helps us to attract more workforce coming to the company.

Torbjörn Karlsson:Yeah.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:Yeah. I agree with that. In terms of sustainability, you know, we'll need to, we will really need to focus on education. I think that's key. So if we look at, if we ask ourselves, where is the next generation of aviation professionals coming from, right? It will come from developing countries. It will come from countries where you have a very young population. But as an industry, as a whole, that is not sustainable, right? You need to be able to develop aviation professionals across the entire, across the entire world. It is not sustainable to, you know, to come in and do mostly cross-border recruitment. It drives, at a certain point, it's just going to drive up costs for everybody. So it's important for us to focus On, I guess, one is again education training. The other is perhaps as a region, we can collaborate and come up with initiatives that can help address the concerns. To a certain— anyway, to a large extent, Malaysia and the Philippines are very much alike. Yeah. We have a young population. We have a tremendous number of highly educated English-speaking workforce. And, you know, we are capitalizing on that.

Torbjörn Karlsson:And again, the problem is there are shortages abroad that make it very enticing for our personnel to Yeah, well, there's a question on Slido saying that, what do you think about exchange programs within ASEAN airlines for engineering people to give them a richer experience? It sounds like maybe PAL and MAS should be trialling something and start and show ASEAN what could be done.

Nasaruddin A. Bakar:I'm fully— we are fully supportive in this, and of course there are some regulatory requirements that we have to comply, right, because because these are heavily regulated industries. But yeah, in fact, I myself was just— Yes, you were. I was just seconded to Japan Airlines about 2 months ago, where we had a lot of sharings between the airlines, and I think it's not just one way, the learnings are from both ends. So yes, I totally support and I totally agree on that part.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:And Toby, there's just a bit of trivia. Many, I think, of the Senior pilots of Malaysian Airlines used to train in the PAL Aviation School.

Nasaruddin A. Bakar:That's right.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:Back in the '80s, in the early '80s. So, so that's one example of a collaboration that perhaps we can bring back at some point.

Torbjörn Karlsson:And it's been our experience when we look at, I mean, there's often a statement made that in Asia it's very hard, particularly in ASEAN, to send people, second them abroad, because there's reluctance to move. But organizations that have taken a stint of saying, no, let's do it for 3 months, 6 months, or 9 months, more targeted, more clear what the value is, they embrace it really hard because they don't have to move the family with them. So the shorter exchange programs really, really add value, and I think that's seen as something which is enticing to join.

Nasaruddin A. Bakar:Exactly.

Torbjörn Karlsson:But there was a question about technology, and you touched on it. So, you know, I mean, I think some notes, I think BCG was saying that airlines that use AI in operations and customer service can see a 20% to 40% efficiency gain. So we have the other part of the equation is to make sure we don't need as many people because we can do it through technology. So what role do you think technology plays in reducing both the demand, but perhaps at the same time also making the airline sector a bit more attractive? How have you gone about doing that?

Nasaruddin A. Bakar:Well, especially with regards to the below-the-wing area, right? With technology, we believe that they will help is to enhance our productivity. Hence, with the enhanced productivity, the required workforce will be slightly lower. And not only that, if you look at airports, we're using AI, airports using technology, and you don't see people fronting the terminals at all. So hence, the likes of our check-in counters, investing in digitalization, investing in technology is so important, and that will help us not only to improve the process and the productivity, but more so, we're able to contain the requirement of the workforce, especially for us in Malaysia Airlines.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:So one of the things that have come out in our employee engagement surveys is that employees look for a company that essentially is heavily into digital initiatives and technology. And we have invested significantly in terms of, you know, enabling many parts of our organization through technology. And we will continue to do that. The challenge, obviously, is that with AI, with the advent of AI and with all of this technology coming in, there's a legitimate concern on many employees that you know, what will happen to them, right? What will happen to them when we've become very efficient through the use of technology? And so what we're doing now is we have built what we call a PAL Multiversity, where we ensure that our employees are upskilled, you know, to be able to to adapt to the new technologies. And so our— what we're trying to tell them is that AI is not here to replace you, right? Technology is not here to replace you. What is important is that we give them the tools to be able to upscale. And we're heavily investing in that as well.

Torbjörn Karlsson:So it's interesting because I think when we start— that's a very positive note, I like that— because when we started, I mean, depending on how you look at this, if the glass is half empty, right, we are in real serious trouble. We're not going to have enough people to be able to do it. But if I'm listening a little bit to what we're talking about, there's also perhaps a half glass half full. So I mean, what's your thoughts on how insurmountable is this problem, or is it actually something we could do if we just focus? What's your thoughts?

Nasaruddin A. Bakar:Well, I believe in this world of sameness in industry, right? The airline, the organization needs to have the differentiator. Whether we want to see it half full, with the growth that we plan, it is something that is positive for the organization and for the public to perceive that industry is growing. And I think with, with all those narratives out there saying that, you know, there are opportunities in industry, and looking at positive instead of the negative bit, we are able to address this as a whole. But I would like to echo what Carlos was saying because I believe it's quite important, right? You know, things— this is something that's not sustainable if we do not address this as an industry, not as an organization. So I believe the players, the regulators should be able to come in to help us. to figure out what kind of guidelines and policy so that we are able to have a sustainable workforce across the organization.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:Yeah. When you are in the aviation industry, you need to view things optimistically. I think that's, that's the reality, right? When you're in the aviation industry, you cannot be pessimistic. So I would view it as half full. Yeah, we know the challenges. We know how massive the challenges are. But knowing that well in advance gives us the flexibility to be able to plan and to address all of these concerns. I agree with Captain. I think it takes more than just a few airlines or few regions to look at the problem and see it from a sustainable perspective. It takes the whole industry. And I do believe that, you know, the industry has been very resilient. And so I do believe, I'm optimistic that, you know, everybody, you know, we'll all get our acts together and understand that, you know, the challenges are massive, but it's not insurmountable.

Torbjörn Karlsson:Good. So, I'm conscious we only have 2 minutes left, so if you could do, if we ignore funding, which is an issue, I know, but if you could do just 2 things to accelerate the impact on this problem, what would be your 2, top 2 suggestions or top 2 actions you would take?

Nasaruddin A. Bakar:That's a tough one. Yeah, I know. It is, it is.

Torbjörn Karlsson:And you only have a minute to answer it also.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:All right, okay, well, one, I keep going back to to education and training. I think that's the key. Number 2, I think for companies, for airlines like PAL and like Malaysian Airlines, we need— again, we cannot compete dollar to dollar. But what we can do and what we've been doing is really to out-inspire other companies. in terms of retaining our personnel. And we do that through various initiatives on people programs and all of that. We are both flag carriers, and that alone has a significant impact on our employees. There is a— and I tell many people this, that I've not been in a company where the employees are so devoted, so loyal to the brand. And I think in that sense, we are doing a good job in terms of inspiring our people to view Philippine Airlines as an employer where, you know, they would want to stay in.

Torbjörn Karlsson:Dr. Lai Teck Lai.

Nasaruddin A. Bakar:For me, I've got 30 seconds to go. For me, it's quite similar to what Carlos is saying. I think if funding is not an issue, the investment on training is so important. Upskilling of these people is vital, especially as I mentioned about the Gen Z. They wanted to see a clear path what they want to become in the next 5 or 10 years. So training is one of it, and one other thing that we would like to invest further as an organization is to ensure that we're able to promote not just the airline in terms of the brand, but the industry as a whole. Because I believe the post-COVID era, the industry has damaged in a way in terms of job security. So we will need as industry to promote this and spend a lot of marketing advertisement that there are real opportunities in this industry, for at least for the next 20 and 30 years to go.

Torbjörn Karlsson:Good, thank you. I like that. So in summary, it sounds like collaborate, with partners, government, to create better frameworks, better ability to educate. You work, you work on retention and make sure that you upskill people and let them stay. So straightforward. Glass is more than half full, I think.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:Perfect.

Torbjörn Karlsson:Thank you very much for your time.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:Thank you, Toby.

Torbjörn Karlsson:Thank you.

Carlos Luis Fernandez:Thank you, everyone.

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