Monetising the Customer Relationship: Non-fare revenues

Transcript

Henry Harteveldt:I'm Henry Harteveldt. I'm president and airline industry analyst at Atmosphere Research Group. We are an independent airline industry strategic research and advisory firm now based in Dallas, Texas. It's my pleasure to have this great group of executives and leaders here with me to talk about monetising the non-air revenue side. And we heard a little bit of this from Michael's conversation earlier today. We're going to get into it. A reminder that you can submit questions via Slido, and the code should be up on the screen in a moment, the QR code. So please submit your questions. We'll be seeing them up here, and we'll get to them during the course of our conversation. So we have executives from Finnair, from SAS Scandinavian, from Virgin Atlantic, and CoverGenius to talk about this. And first, Peter, thank you for your sponsorship here at CAPA. Gentlemen, I want to start with the airlines first, the current situation. We cannot ignore this. You know, we have a lot to cover, but as moderator, I'd be remiss if we didn't. It's the proverbial elephant in the room. The high-cost fuel environment is affecting all of us. It's affecting your carriers. I'm just curious, what can you share with us about what you're doing in this wake of what we're seeing? Lufthansa has cut flights. They're beyond just Gulf flying and so on. Simon, is Finnair doing anything different? How do you feel about the fuel situation? The IEA released a report last week that frankly, has sent a lot of anxiety coursing through travelers' brains right now. They're worried about whether their summer holidays will be able to be taken because of the risk of fuel shortages. Simon, would you start us off, please?

Simon Large:I think the first thing I would say is, like every airline in this room, we are doing a lot of scenario planning, trying to understand what might happen next. That's essential because I think we all know we have to remain adaptable, versatile to fast-changing circumstances. We're looking out for every tweet, as somebody said to me earlier. I think the other thing is we are reassuring, in our case, our customers because we are confident we will fly a full schedule up until the summer. In Finnair's case, we are hedged and We are confident we can get the fuel that we need to do what we need to do. Now, beyond into the winter, that's another story, and we'll have to wait and see what happens. But so there's a lot of reassurance, but in our case, we are flying customers through to Asia in maximum numbers in many ways. So we're taking a lot of extra traffic.

Henry Harteveldt:Paul, what about SAS?

Paul Verhagen:Yeah, so I think we were maybe one of the first ones out actually to do some capacity reduction back in April. We took out 3-4%. We did that again in May. We did that, by the way, mostly intra-Scandinavia where the impact on the customer is very limited because those are very high-frequency routes, right? So rebooking opportunities are ample, and instead of flying 12 times a certain O&D, you fly them 11, right? And that then represents 3 to 4% The network impact on a global scale to us is limited because our footprint in the Middle East is relatively limited. Obviously, we suspended Beirut and Tel Aviv, but that's all that we fly or did fly in that region so far. And then the bigger question, yeah, I mean, people feel it right now when they go, when they are at the pump, right, filling up their tank. I think a bit longer ahead in time, if this prolongs, then people will also feel it in their wallets when they, right, do their supermarket shopping, when interest rates go up, etc. That then may have an impact on those people that were thinking of doing late bookings for the summer, right, if they really feel the impact on their, on their purchasing power. But having said that, as we speak, we don't see that yet. So we still see a very healthy demand and we don't see an impact either of increased fuel prices nor from the perceived insecurity about fuel shortages. And in that sense, some of the messages that came out yesterday are reassuring, right, that in Europe at least there will not be such shortages.

Henry Harteveldt:Okay, great. João, what about at Virgin Atlantic?

Juha Jaervinen:Yeah, very similar feedback from us as well. Obviously, we had to suspend Dubai and Riyadh in the Middle East, but actually the demand environment right now is extremely strong. to be honest, out of UK to India. We increased more production to India over the summer. Now we fly up to 6 times a day, and North American demand has also now bounced back. Actually, overall right now, demand environment is strong. To Paul's point, if this prolongs for a number of months more, of course, there will be an increasing concern on demand outlook. Right now, we are surfing correctly, and obviously with the higher fuels hedging, We're in a relatively okay place, but of course, we need to make sure that this crisis comes, comes to an end. Right.

Henry Harteveldt:Okay, thanks. Now let's start talking about monetising the non-air revenue, so everything beyond the base fares that we're looking at. And I'd like to start with holidays because it is going to be summer and summer holidays are popular. Juha, you shared with me, which I found fascinating, that Virgin Atlantic opens its Virgin holiday bookings as long as 2 years in advance to certain destinations. Paul, SAS has brought back SAS Holidays. You know, clearly, you guys see these as very additive to the airline. A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away when I was on the airline side and I managed our airline's tour products, we had these battles with pricing and revenue management. Holidays are dilutive, holidays are additive, etc., etc. You guys clearly see them as beneficial. So I'm wondering if you can share with us, you know, how you make them work for you, how you manage it, you know, how do you capture the data, all of these things that benefit the business. Juha, would you start us off?

Juha Jaervinen:Yeah, sure. I would probably claim that Virgin Atlantic was probably one of the first airlines actually to go into the tour operator business. As an integral part. So back in 1985, actually, Virgin Holidays was established. And during the pandemic, we integrated it into the airline. And the key foundation of that is really actually that beyond 1-year selling period. So some of our destinations like Florida, which is a key part of our business, we sell up to 45 to 50% of our Orlando holidays more than 11, 12 months out. So we have the booking window open up to 2 years, to even a bit over 2 years. And, and many people think that, oh, that must be the low-yielding stuff you sell that far out. But no, actually the average yields are higher than what we sell within the last, um, 11 months. And the reason is people want to secure access to that capacity. And we have very close relationship with the likes of Disney and Universal to make sure that we can monetise, of course, on ticket sales, we can monetise on, on those destination services. And in other locations like Maldives, which is a very popular destination for us now, the Virgin Atlantic Holidays sale earns us up to 60% more revenue for us through to the ground margins that we make on destination services, hotel commissions, etc. So the holidays is a crucial part of our business, but we still see further opportunities by integrating it more into our wider offer only 15% of our corporate travellers flying with us actually buy a holiday from us, which is a massive opportunity that is linked to the fact that we are, of course, the challenger brand in the UK. Still, many people fly with the other big carrier in the UK. So that is a massive opportunity for us to just cross-populate business travel, holidays, holidays to business travel, etc. So that's what we're focusing on right now.

Henry Harteveldt:What about at SAS?

Paul Verhagen:Yeah, I think I need to correct you there. I don't think we brought it back. I think we— so we introduced it last December, and I think that was actually the first time we ever did it. And in all honesty to my colleagues here who've been doing this for longer, we were absolutely a bit late to the game. But hey, so we introduced it 3, 4 months ago. It's up and running. It works and it makes sense, right? It makes sense from several angles. One, It diversifies your portfolio, right? In that new customer segmentation with that leisure customer, etc., out there, we didn't really have a full extended product to them. That is one. It is built on the back of a very strong brand and brand recognition, at least in our home market. So people, yeah, we are a natural brand to go to when it comes to these kind of, these kind of products. There's a perfect match with loyalty, right? We have a strong loyalty base. We have actually made sure that customers, your bonus members then in this case, initially can gain points when they buy. In a few months, they will actually also be able to redeem their points when they buy a euro— sorry, an SAS Holidays package. The biggest challenge that we have so far after 3-4 months is the awareness. So there's not this mindset yet with the customer that you can go to SES not just for your tickets, but also for stuff beyond the ticket and actually the complete package. But all in all, hey, it's equity, definitely. It's distressed inventory. It moves us into a different market segment, and it also helps to a certain extent offset some of our seasonality, right? Because we don't only sell Scandinavia through SAS Holidays, but also to Scandinavia. And since those markets have different seasons, right, it helps to sell traffic to Scandinavia where, for example, travel from Scandinavia is lower. So yeah, we're just getting started. Eventually we have the ambition to do this in-house. We now do it through a third party, but so far so good.

Henry Harteveldt:Okay, Finnair.

Simon Large:Yeah, we have a very established holiday business that that goes back many, many years, a separate company exclusively for Finnair called Aurinko Matkat. And it is quite literally the happiest business in Finland, which is saying something from one of the happiest countries in the world. So having it in our brand portfolio is a huge asset for me. It essentially brings people joy taking their summer holidays. And if you've had a proper Finnish winter, you'll understand why getting out and going—

Juha Jaervinen:Yeah.

Simon Large:to get some sunshine matters. So no, it's— for all the reasons my colleagues have said, there are lots of integration opportunities, lots of ways that you can redeem points. It is very popular and it's good margin on the whole and it balances, as I said, but it's seasonal. So it brings us business at different times of the year.

Henry Harteveldt:It makes you more travel companies as opposed to just airlines, doesn't it? Right?

Simon Large:Exactly.

Henry Harteveldt:Now, let me ask, you know, you've got the availability of more sophisticated booking platforms, dynamic pricing technologies, revenue management, does that make it easier? Does it allow you to be more effective in how you not just develop the holidays, whether it's the destinations or anything else, but selling it, marketing it, engaging customers, and so on? Is it easier for you to do that, say, now than it was maybe a few years ago? Simon, what about at Finnair?

Simon Large:Yeah, definitely. The technology should make it easier for us and easier for the customer, and we should make the journey for them a seamless one, if you like. Now, do we achieve that every time? No, we've got some work to do, but without a doubt, the way the technology is going, there are lots of opportunities to add different products and services, get partnerships, and improve the travel experience.

Juha Jaervinen:No, definitely the same. We, last year, we brought the websites together and the app. So we have now integrated the airline and the holidays together in the same app. And actually this week, we were the first airline in the world to bring our AI concierge into ChatGPT. So we have really started to integrate. Our apps into various AI platforms because that is the future. And there the flights and holidays are sort of integrally connected because it is quite often just like my colleagues here have said, many people are just not aware that you can buy a holiday or various packages through the airline. And it's just more that mindset change. And of course it's in our interest to get a bigger share of the, bigger share of the pie. And earn those ground margins that airlines traditionally haven't earned on.

Henry Harteveldt:Great. I'd like to now touch on bundling. Bundling, whether it's airline products, non-airline products, but ancillaries, insurance, things like this. I'm going to be mindful of Peter on here. You know, there's a lot that NDC can do, modern airline retailing, to enable all of this. I remember when the COVID pandemic hit, we heard airlines talking about how they were pivoting NDC bundles into leisure-focused bundles because corporate travel dried up, but people were finding ways to travel even during the pandemic where they could. And anyway, so I'm just curious, you know, one of the biggest challenges, of course, is figuring out what to bundle, to offer to whom in the most relevant way. And it's exciting, it's intimidating, it's complex, but it's worthwhile. So Peter, actually, I'd like to start with you, please, because you were talking about how you and SAS actually do work together on insurance and protection. So maybe you could lead us on this part of the discussion.

Peter Smith:Yes, for sure.

Simon Large:Thank you, Henry.

Peter Smith:I think the thing when it comes to bundling in particular is not just offering static off-the-shelf bundles of products that, that might suit most customers. You know, a sort of one-size-fits-nobody is not the right approach because if you're not relevant to a customer and the underlying trip that they've booked, then all you do is add friction into the journey. And so, you know, I think of If I bring it back to relevancy, if I may, for a moment, I think of relevancy actually as contextualised intelligence. It's about how do you contextualise what you offer to the underlying product that the customer purchases. And the way that you do that is you use all the data points that are available to you as an airline. Airlines are blessed in that you have data that many other digital organisations would dream to capture. And so it's ensuring that you're using that data in a way that you're able to offer up products, the right products at the right price, but at the right moments as well. And so it's about having a selection of products that can be bundled. That might be micro benefits like an eSIM. It might be a delay pay product where you parametrically track a customer's flight in real time. And you anticipate the moment something goes wrong and then pay them out instantly. It's how can you bundle different products to different cohorts of customers in real time to really enrich the customer experience. And we know with SAS, for example, that the way in which you personalise and offer the right products to your customers— because you have a huge suite of products at SAS, you've spent a lot of time over the last of years building out that suite of products, but they're careful in the way they deliver that to customers. And we're told by SAS that customers who take out different types of products actually have a higher net promoter score than those who don't. Why? Anecdotally, you could say it's because they're actually enriching the customer experience by offering the right products that matter most.

Henry Harteveldt:Okay, so let's build on this because you said one of my favourite words, which is relevancy. You know, airlines get bashed a lot for it, quote, nickelling and diming, unquote. Yet, you know, if we are able to use the data to then target the offers in the right way to the right person at the right time, easy to say, hard to do. You don't feel that you're being penalised, you feel you're being served. How are you guys trying to— how are you guys approaching this? on the airline side so that you are able to grow your non-air revenues in ways that make sense both for you but also for your travelers?

Juha Jaervinen:I'll take that.

Henry Harteveldt:Yeah, please, Simon, go ahead.

Simon Large:No, no, I was going to say the only thing I— I mean, it sounds a wonderful world and it is, but it can be extremely confusing for customers. Yes, there's lots of data, there are lots of touchpoints. We're still in the early days of this. We know what great looks like. I'm not sure how many genuinely produce that yet. In reality, I think we're still in the very early days. So there's great potential. We have to be careful because we have to make it understandable and simple as well so that people don't feel they're being fooled into buying things that they didn't mean to buy or that it's more expensive.

Paul Verhagen:Thank you.

Simon Large:going down that route than another. So there's a lot, I think, culturally as an airline industry we have to do to really think on the side of the customer and not think on the side of the airline. So there's quite a long way to go, but your point is completely true. There's a lot of potential.

Henry Harteveldt:Go ahead.

Peter Smith:I think, if I may, relevancy actually exists right the way through the customer journey. It's not just about the right product and the right price. Actually, in order to remain truly relevant to customers, you have to ensure that you're with them and you hold their hand from the moment they leave the house to the moment they get back home. And so relevancy might be that if something goes wrong— disruptions are inevitable, we know that they're going to happen— how you handle the customer in that moment of disruption, how you anticipate their needs, you give them speedy resolutions. If they've had a problem and they need paying out because they've had a medical emergency or they've had to cancel. How do you ensure you do that in 2 days or instantly? They don't even have to make a claim. That's actually what real relevancy is, and that's what truly builds loyalty with customers and trust.

Henry Harteveldt:Yeah, I remember when I was working at one airline, the president of the airline said the measure of a good airline isn't how it's performing on a sunny day when it's clear and warm and everything. It's What do you do when it's Christmas Eve and a snowstorm hits your major hub or some of your major cities?

Paul Verhagen:The two of us, we have quite a lot of that.

Henry Harteveldt:Yeah, exactly. Well, I grew up in New York, so yeah. But, you know, it's, it's how do you do it? How do you help that customer when the chips are down? So I agree, there's a lot of value there.

Juha Jaervinen:I would say that just like Simon said, I think the opportunity is massive and probably we're now entering that period where actually airlines can do it in greater volumes, both in terms because of AI, but also because of in-flight connectivity, which obviously many of us are now entering the period of Starlink and the others where we can actually offer through end-to-end connectivity, first of all, that we can connect to individuals, we can customise more with the likes of NDC and then obviously modern airline retailing. In the next 5 years, probably many of us will be entering into a very different world, which obviously is what customers serve. But it's, it's of course a fine line how far you take that commercialisation without feeling bombarded.

Henry Harteveldt:Yeah, the fine line between cool and creepy.

Juha Jaervinen:Yeah, exactly.

Paul Verhagen:Yeah, no, not a lot to add. Agree to all of the above. The only thing to make it more tangible and come to that end stage that is indeed not there. What we're doing to put our money where our mouth is, is that we've just embarked on the implementation of a customer data platform, believe it or not. We didn't have that to the extent that we're now building. And that is really that foundation, right, to be able to offer the right product at the right time to the right customer through the right channel. So we're getting there.

Henry Harteveldt:So it's a good segue to personalisation. Simon, when we spoke in our prep call, you discussed that personalisation requires care and focus, which I wholeheartedly agree with. And Paul, you mentioned that SaaSs a new partnership with Starlink for in-flight connectivity is going to enable greater personalisation. And Yuhua, you just touched on that as well. Research that we have done, research that McKinsey and other consultancies have done, have all shown consumers want personalised offers. Our research shows that while people are very protective of their data, when it comes to airlines in the dozen countries around the world we do research, 75% or more of consumers say, I'm willing to share my personal data with the airlines I fly regularly, and 80% or more want you to actually track what they buy so that you can create more tailored offers. The customer is willing to dance with you if you can match the tempo. We've been talking about personalisation for the entire 26 years I've been an analyst. I'm old enough to remember a book called One-to-One Marketing about direct marketing. I think it was more than 30 years ago. We talk about personalisation, but it's really hard to do. How are you guys approaching this to grow your non-air revenues?

Simon Large:Well, you're absolutely right. I've been in the industry the same length of time as you, and we have been talking about it a long time. I think there There are 3 or 4 things that matter here to me. One is you have to have the right ways of working inside the company and the right organisation structure to think this through end to end. You also have to have the right culture and really, as I say, have good insights and understand the customer well. Because as you rightly said, it can verge on creepy if you do it badly, and that's not what anybody wants. So, There's how you work, the way you structure yourself, the culture you create, the insights you develop, and then the technology, of course, you put in place are all important elements to make, I think, an airline truly add value, if you like, to the customer experience when it comes to personalisation.

Paul Verhagen:Yeah, maybe to tag on to your remark that we indeed discussed on our prep call, Henry, on Starlink and Starlink the enabler of personalisation. personalisation, uh, and hence monetisation. First of all, when we decided to implement Starlink, we now have it equipped on roughly 20+ aircraft. The, the leading argument was never the monetisation. The leading argument is NPS, right? It leads to more— There's actually a question. It is, it is a hygiene factor. It is a need to have, right? And actually now with 20+ aircraft equipped, we do see that the NPS that we got that we get on Starlink-equipped aircraft versus aircraft that are equipped with still legacy systems, it's 8 to 10 percentage difference. So it's a significant difference. What we do then to come to the personalisation, so people have to sign up, right, to the loyalty programme. Then you have them locked in to a certain extent. We see now an average uptake of 700 incremental members per day because of, just because of Starlink. So that's, that's 20,000 in a month. Yeah. And then, then, then you have them locked in. So then there is the monetisation, which you can do through in-flight retail and what have you. And there is the personalisation/partnership element. So by knowing that customer better, you can then through Starlink and through your in-flight entertainment system offer more personalised or give him or her more personalised offers. Also there, we're not quite there yet, but hey, it's another enabler.

Henry Harteveldt:Okay, all right. I have one last topic and question to ask with you, and then we're going to go to our audience questions from Slido. And that's about subscriptions. We heard about this earlier from Volotea. They've got 2 subscription-based loyalty programmes. United Airlines in the States has several subscription products that they use to generate quite a lot of money. You know, Paul, you mentioned that SAS is expanding its use of subscription products to serve more of your customers, particularly leisure travellers. Alaska Airlines in the States has subscription products, but subscription products within airlines are kind of like Britney Spears. They've got their fans and they've got their detractors. And so as you grow them, how do you manage growing them again so that they are additive without being dilutive? And it's a tough balance to do. You know, so how should airlines think about subscription products if they're considering this? Yeah, why don't you start us off?

Paul Verhagen:By the way, I'm a big Britney Spears fan, but maybe more the Britney Spears of 10, 15 years ago than the one today. But hey, that's off topic. Um, um, yeah, so we, we do have a, um, we do have a subscription program in terms of buying a certain number of coupons for a certain, for a certain O&D, right? So it's not ancillary subscription, although we're looking at that as well, but probably later. Yeah, it's, it's, I think it's an, it's an interesting value proposition also when you link it to loyalty. What we do, what we have today is a corporate model, so it's called Travel Pass for Corporate. It's especially catered to SMEs, and it basically buys them Yeah. So they buy a certain number of coupons for a certain O&D at a predetermined price, and it gives them then flexibility. It works for those where you cannot yet offer a corporate contract, and we're now looking into bringing that into the leisure segment for the very same reason, so that a customer, a leisure customer, then knows upfront what he or she will have paid for that ticket. And that, that's basically the, yeah, the biggest unique selling point. Yeah, it's working. So of course, the leisure segment is a different one from a corporate segment, but we'll test and see how it works. But for example, in Scandinavia, yeah, we have quite a number of people with second houses in the Mediterranean, right? They fly there 5, 6 times a year, then they buy a coupon, then they buy 10 coupons, and they know upfront, well, for my 10 times that I will be flying to Malaga, for the sake of example, I now have prepaid this amount. And that's also the beauty of it, right? They have prepaid, so there's a certain cash flow that you have. You know that there will be a certain breakage. So, right, people, when they buy 10 coupons, they probably will not spend those 10 coupons, but the money's in.

Simon Large:I mean, I think they're a very interesting product. You have to have the right audience, the right segments to serve, and you have to design them in a way that they're easy to understand. Because I have had scenarios in the past where customers have come back and said, oh no, I didn't understand the rules, and, and I did— I thought I could get my seat confirmed at, you know, any time of the year. And there can be all kinds of complexities if you're not super clear up front, but they are an excellent product to have in your, in your portfolio if you know how to use it. And it's really designed to make the customers' lives better.

Juha Jaervinen:Great.

Henry Harteveldt:I want to go to questions from our audience. There's a really interesting one. You know, will AI take control away from airlines or give more control to airlines in your abilities to add non-seat products and sell those to, you know, to your travelers? You know, again, AI, I think we're all trying to figure out how to use it effectively, but I'm just curious how you see it contributing to your sale of non-air products. And Peter, from your standpoint at CoverGenius, I'd like you to weigh in. But what's going on at Virgin?

Juha Jaervinen:I'll say that especially because of AI and the concierge that we have started with. Obviously, we're still quite early on that learning curve as well, but It should be additive, that it gives customers more options, proactively making recommendations. So therefore, we are planning to use it that way, that it would definitely be sort of your personal concierge, i.e., offering you the next best offer that suits your needs. And therefore, especially now in the in-flight space as well, that we, with Starlink aircraft, first one next week for Virgin Atlantic as well, and we have—

Paul Verhagen:Wow.

Juha Jaervinen:all aircraft early next year done. In the long-haul space where we operate only, that gives us a massive opportunity considering the length of the journey that customers are with us. So definitely AI optimisation on board will be a key focus for us as well.

Henry Harteveldt:Peter, you know, from your standpoint at CoverGenius, AI, how does it help with relevancy?

Peter Smith:How does it help with— I think all, all of the research at the moment shows that across the generations, people want to use AI to help them make a decision, for their research and a decision. They're not quite there yet with trusting AI to do everything, but they do want one-click purchase. So tell me everything I need to know, then let me go and book that in one click. And when you're embedded into GPT or you're using AI and agentic within your organisation, either way, you've, you've an opportunity there where AI knows your customer. They know more about them than you do. So you might know that they always buy an eSIM. or they always take baggage, or they always travel with their family. So that allows you to identify in real time products that are relevant to that individual customer. And if you're working with the right technology partner that enables you, you can deliver products in the moment that matter.

Henry Harteveldt:Can you put the Slido questions back up for us to see? Because there were a couple that I wanted to get to. Hello?

Paul Verhagen:Okay.

Simon Large:If I can comment on the AI, I mean, I think what it indicates, and I completely agree, but it means that, I mean, customers are going to be in a sense wiser and smarter, I think, and we are going to have to as an industry, as airlines, adapt to that and offer them products that they want, right? And that means we have to start thinking now, preparing now for that world. that is going to be upon us. So it does require us to be even more customer-centric than we've ever been, I think, as an industry, because that's what customers are going to be demanding, right? They're going to be demanding different types of approach, and AI is going to be informing them. So yeah, it's coming quickly.

Peter Smith:But it also enables that ongoing conversation throughout their entire journey, whether things are going right or wrong. You can have an ongoing open conversation with your customers without you as an airline having to really do much if you've got the right technology to enable that.

Juha Jaervinen:But I think what is also important though, that, that the risk or the opportunity is that AI becomes sort of a hygiene factor across everything we do. And I think there then the customer service element and the personal interaction with the customer then really can be the differentiator instead, because probably in a few years' time we all have the same technology. How do we then differentiate? And at least for us at Virgin as well, it is then the human interaction that That's actually a great segue to this question from the audience.

Henry Harteveldt:Is there potential for human support as an ancillary product when customer support does become so AI-based or technology-based? Do you think that you could offer something where it's like for X dollars, you can actually speak to a real person?

Paul Verhagen:Oh yeah, absolutely. We actually did a study Because we're implementing voicebots now through AI in our customer care center, and we concluded that of all the calls that we get, 70% can actually be done through AI, through a voicebot AI, right? So there's only 30% roughly of calls that really need human assistance. There probably is a scenario that even if you're within that 70% of things that could be handled through AI, you are still able to have a human voice, but then it could be an ancillary.

Juha Jaervinen:Okay.

Simon Large:I mean, the— I think it's pretty consistent across many airlines that the touchpoint that still gets the highest scores on NPS is the in-flight crew touchpoint where crew— and that they're still human as far as I'm aware— and people really appreciate the human touch. And I don't anticipate that changing anytime soon. I hope not. It's a pretty bad sign, I think, if we We don't appreciate that. So I think, I think there is a very big role for human-centric support of the, of the experience and giving people choice. And we provide it. I mean, we know many of our most frequent flyers would prefer it today. I can't speak for what they'll say a year from now or 4 years from now.

Paul Verhagen:Great.

Henry Harteveldt:Gentlemen, thank you. We are out of time and we've got Richard Quest about to moderate a session virtually with Sir Sir Tim Clark from some little airline called Emirates. So anyway, Simon, Paul, Juha, Peter, thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in thanking our panel. And now we turn it over to Sir Tim and to Richard.

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