How Can Airlines Achieve Their Sustainability Goals?

Transcript

Michael Gill:Ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon and welcome to this last but one session of the conference. Thank you to Peter and his fantastic team at CAPA, and of course our really generous hosts at Qatar Airways for allowing us to really, I think, bring to your attention a very key topic in the aviation sector. regulatory space at the moment. Always good to hear from ICAO as well, what they're doing on the environment and on sustainability generally. This is an area where industry and ICAO have worked very closely together in the past years to bring this forward. I'll try and keep my brief introduction as short as possible because we're really here to hear from our, our panelists, but it did strike me And this is a great topic to— as we bring this conference to a close, because we've heard a lot in the last day and a half about market access, liberalization, all those kind of issues. They're all very well, they're all very important, hugely important of course, but I'd contend that what we're talking about, sustainability, is even more fundamental, because there's no point as an industry in having market access if we haven't also earned our license to grow. Regulation is important in the sustainability space, of course, but we also have to have in mind the impact of public opinion and politics. And so my contention would be that what we're going to discuss here really is absolutely fundamental to everything else that you've already heard. Our panel is going to take a fairly unique view at this and also a fairly broad view at this. Unique because we've brought together some outsiders from the airline industry to tell us what they've been doing from their perspective and what the airline industry should be doing more of. I say outsiders, relative outsiders, because all 3 of them are very closely involved in what we do. A broad perspective because we're going to try and take the agenda beyond environmental issues and explore what sustainability really means in a broader sense. I wanted to show you just a few areas as we— before we get into the discussion. This is a hugely complex industry, as we well know. 44 billion passengers a year, 130,000 aircraft, 45,000 routes. These are big numbers. We run an extremely complex and a global operation, but we're also a huge contributor to the global economy. Aviation supports directly or indirectly 65.5 million jobs a year, nearly $3 trillion in global GDP supported by aviation. If we were a country, we'd probably be the 20th largest economy in the world, about the size of Switzerland. Just in this region, responsible for about 4% of global traffic, aviation supports 2.3 million jobs, $130 million in GDP as well. So the dilemma for our industry is how do we harness that economic motor, that growth, that support for jobs and GDP in a sustainable manner? On this, I would slightly disagree with Peter Harbison. It doesn't happen often, but on this I would. On one aspect, it's that this isn't an issue which is off in the distance. This is an issue which airlines are having to deal with today. It's not just about regulation, but Laura's going to talk to us a little bit about regulation in the environment space, but it's also how do we satisfy the needs of our passengers, our future employees, our investors? How do we satisfy the sustainability agenda of the general public? And I genuinely believe if we don't get that right, then that's really where we're going to see constraints to growth out into the future. So let me just conclude by my opening remarks by showing this slide. Jane Hoopy mentioned the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. They were intended to set the development agenda for the coming decades for the whole of our global society. They cover a whole range of areas where aviation actually already plays a significant role. Climate change is one area, access to clean energy is another, but the fact— the support for life on land and access to health, access to education, these are all sustainability issues where aviation is already playing a significant role.

Laura Pierallini:And my—

Michael Gill:And I guess my final point would be to note that arguably the Sustainable Development Goals are going to be the framework according to which we as a sector are judged out into the future. So on that note, I'm going to introduce our panelists. As I said, coming from very diverse and broad backgrounds on this. Laura Pierallini is a lawyer based in Rome. Rob Campbell is the program manager for the United for Wildlife program. which is under the Royal Foundation umbrella in London, and Paul Paoletta heads up aviation solutions at Neste, a fuel producer based in Geneva. So turning to our, to our panelists, as I mentioned, sustainability means a lot of different things to different people. And just to get us going, Laura, perhaps you could talk us through what sustainable means to you in an aviation context.

Laura Pierallini:Thank you also, because as you said, we have listened this word many times from you and from Ms. Hoop. Of course, it doesn't mean literally capable to be supported. If applied to an industry which provides indisputable benefits like the aviation one, to me it means that it is able to mitigate the adverse effect that it may cause as well, like the aviation industry is doing. First of all, because it is one of the few industries that recognize the negative impact it has, and we will elaborate further on this point.

Michael Gill:Rob, you've got a slightly different take on sustainability to this climate change. What does it mean for you?

Rob Campbell:Yeah, yeah, I do. And actually, if you look at global sustainability, it's quite easy to see the links with the air industry or the air sector. I mean, a good example was from the Africa panel this morning when they spoke about tourism and the importance of how the air industry supports that amongst— along throughout Africa. If you look at the illegal wildlife trade, which is the the illegal— the trade around illegal poaching of elephant ivory, rhino horn, and other animals, you're significantly impacting that tourism part of Africa where so much business will come through airlines into Africa to see these animals in their natural habitat. You know, we could be in the last 10 years of seeing these animals in the wild. And so you see how much the illegal wildlife trade will impact that. that also impacts on the GDP of the country, the tourism part, and also on the airlines flying in and out. So the sustainability piece is really engaging the group picture, the wider picture, to say everyone must play their role.

Paul Paoletta:Okay.

Michael Gill:And finally, Paul, you're involved in the alternative fuel space working towards addressing climate change. What's your view of sustainability?

Paul Paoletta:Sure. Thanks, Michael, for having me here. For me, sustainability really means both personally and professionally, about leaving a greener, cleaner environment for the next generation. And that starts today by everything that we do, we touch, our actions have to be sustainable, responsible. Within Neste, I'm fortunate to work for a company like Neste where our values are driven by sustainability, where we look at how to create the right solutions, the right products that drive sustainability, that allow our customers to have a choice in making responsible choices.

Michael Gill:Okay, well, we're going to hear a bit more detail about that in a moment, but what I've asked the panelists now to do really is just to give you some commentary from their perspective on how we manage to try and balance growth with sustainability. Laura, are you going to talk about, you know, environmental regulation. What is the current state of play with CORSIA and other national and regional mechanisms around the world, and how do you see them in the coming years?

Laura Pierallini:Yes, first of all, thanks to Ms. Hooper. We already had some insight about CORSIA. As we know, CORSIA has been sorting out the issue of stopping the clock, which was going further and further, because as we know, although was one of the first taking care about the issue of the environment. It was not shared by the rest of the world, I must say. When in June 2016 finally ICAO adopted Corsia, from there on, as Ms. Hoop has just recalled, it has been a very quick progress. And now we know that from first January 2019, 7, 8 countries among which, as Ms. Hoop remembered us, there is also our host country Qatar, have accepted to voluntarily start monitoring the emission because CORSIA will become mandatory only on the third phase, as most of the audience already know.

Michael Gill:Mm-hmm.

Laura Pierallini:Meaning from 2026. But many countries have already accepted, and probably others will be following in accepting, to voluntarily monitor the emissions to be ready in 2020 for the revision and the timeline which has been set up by ICAO. And I guess the best witness on how ICAO is now considering vital for the industry has been the speech of Ms. Hoop. On the other side, we have still the EU ETS, which— It is mandatory by itself. And now, as we have a regulation in place which has substituted the original directive of 2003 in 2017, we have to say that At European level, we have 2 parallel systems, I'm afraid. One which is based on already applicable law, which is the Regulation 2392 of 2017, and the other one based still on the voluntary acceptance by the countries. And the first one applies only within the EEA, Plus Switzerland. I'm afraid this may continue to cause— sorry not to be optimistic to this extent— some confusion in the application worldwide of the regulation on the EU ETS. And besides this, of course, this regulation and voluntary Acceptance of Corsia have not superseded the local law. And interesting, you made a comment about the noise regulation being sometimes an obstacle to the growth of the aviation business. And this, for instance, applies perfectly to my country, Italy.

Rob Campbell:Why?

Laura Pierallini:Because Everybody knows that there is a directive at European level, 2002/30, which takes care about the noise emission. However, in our country there was already a law which was established in advance. Normally Italy is the last one implementing directive, but in this case we were 2 years in advance. Unfortunately, this law, however, was mainly focusing on taxes issues rather than creating instrument to reduce the noise emission. And more than this, according to our constitution, the implementation of this law is regional. So we have different taxes in different region. And to make it short, we had to challenge this law in front of the Constitutional Court for many airlines, having also success. But just to give you the chaos that we have applying a tax on noise whose benefits are not devoted to noise elimination, and which is different region by region, Whilst we have also a directive. So in summary, I'm very positive that a lot of progresses have been made thanks to Corsia, but still the overlap among various systems worldwide, European, and local level seems to be an obstacle of not only harmonization, but the real—

Rob Campbell:Yes.

Laura Pierallini:benefit of the emission and noise solution.

Michael Gill:You make a very good point, Laura, and for a European carrier, they could face the situation where they would have to comply with CORSIA, EU ETS, and then potentially also a national tax, and we've seen proposals recently in the Netherlands, Finland, Sweden, other jurisdictions. That seems to cut against the overall concept of CORSIA, which was a single global measure to address CO2. We have representatives of the EU Commission here. I'm not going to put them on the spot by talking about the future of EU ETS, but perhaps I can put you on the spot. Do you have a sense of what the future holds for ETS for intra-EU international flights once CORSIA is up and running?

Laura Pierallini:Yes, the ideal, and there are already at least tentative to speak about this, will be to make CORSIA within the new EU ETS scheme. And this is, of course, feasible if there is the willingness to do.

Paul Paoletta:Thank you.

Laura Pierallini:So it can be compatible once it will be worldwide accepted. I'm afraid that until this will not be the case, the EU has no motivation to make another effort.

Michael Gill:So we'll have to see how things pan out as Corsia comes into line. Thank you, Laura. Just to shift topics then over to Rob. Many here in this audience perhaps don't quite understand the the extent to which illegal wildlife trafficking is an issue, and what's aviation got to do with that? So perhaps you can just talk us through the current state of play in the work that you're doing.

Rob Campbell:Yeah, sure. I mean, as I say, it's a global issue, and therefore, you know, it's intrinsically linked to the air industry. I mean, if we go back to, you know, what we're really talking about, the world has lost 60% of its wildlife in the last 50 years. So, I mean, if you put that in a human context, it would be the equivalent of losing the populations of North and South America, Europe, Africa, China, and Oceania as a one-off. That's entirely gone, and that's where we are with wildlife. So, the— you know, we are the first generation of people to understand that, you know, we are destroying the environment, the planet, but probably the last generation to be able to have any impact on reversing it or trying to untie those changes that have been made so far. IWT is the 4th biggest black market in the world. I think if you look just at the land mammals involved, then you're talking about $23 billion a year. So it is a huge, huge market, and you've got to understand that— I think data recently showed that about 100— more than 150 countries are involved in the trade.

Paul Paoletta:Yes.

Rob Campbell:whether they like it or not, and that is, you know, whether source, transit, or destination. And, you know, you link all that together and majority, you know, you're looking at, you know, airlines and things like that, shipping to an extent, but, you know, the convenience of airlines at the moment is certainly playing a part. You know, going on airlines, that we've seen over in 2017, there was a 40% increase in IWT going via airlines. So, you know, as services improve and convenience gets better with airlines, you're also opening up to potential to be taken advantage of. Routes tend to focus from Africa to Asia, but often Europe or Middle East are sort of transit hubs, often to try and throw off the scent of where the products are going to. And 80% of the trade goes through large hub airports. So you can see the relevance for the air industry and—

Laura Pierallini:Yes.

Rob Campbell:and airports and things with what we're doing. Looking to solve it, what we're doing already and what, you know, airlines are sort of taking up the banner is instigating staff training. So looking at both training their personnel— realistically, you've seen the personnel are spending more time with passengers and baggage than customs agents. And so they're ideally located to, you know, gather intelligence, provide source intelligence for law enforcement, and things like that. You know, we've seen success in human trafficking in the same method. You know, I think we can do similar for, for, for IWT. We're also seeing technology companies that service the air industry, you know, look to develop scanners that incorporate picking up bone density and, you know, being able to pick up IWT going through a single scanner that will also pick up, you know, explosives or the other contraband that you're looking for. Another really good— it's all about teamwork. I run the United Wildlife Transport Task Force, and that's about getting transport industry as well as law enforcement and NGOs who provide more intelligence into the same room. We've seen real success. Recently, there's a famous case of Jeffrey Ledlum, who was a prolific or self-confessed Pablo Escobar of bird smuggling. And through a combination of airline law enforcement and actually IATA, pretty key to providing the background to increase his sort of his sentence. And that was a real success story. So we are starting to see gains, but there's, there's still a lot to do.

Michael Gill:I guess one of the challenges you have is one that we see in all areas of business. If you can't measure it, you can't How do you, and how is the airline sector addressing the problem of actually getting their arms around the extent of this problem, working out just the level of illegal wildlife trafficking and the increase that we're seeing?

Rob Campbell:You're right, it's difficult to quantify because if you're only seeing what's seized, how do you know what's not seized? That is a big complication that we need to address. But as I say, the importance is coordination and collaborating with staff among the airports. So it's an airline, you know, the airports, the ground handling agents, you know, so it's getting some kind of zero tolerance policy and strengthening that across the board. And that's what I think we'll start to see some improvement. As I say, the other, you know, targets is staff training. You know, we've seen a lot of benefit there. And— but, you know, the other one, raising awareness.

Laura Pierallini:So—

Rob Campbell:you know, the IWT, illegal wildlife trade, is not that well known, and it's raising the banner, and airlines taking up in the front and saying, you know, we, we addressing— this is a problem in the air industry, and we are doing something about it. This is, you know, what we're doing. So it's, it's really— it's things like that could really make a difference.

Michael Gill:Interesting. So another aspect to sustainability, if we want to continue to grow, our customers, our employees are going to be looking at our performance on on how we have tried to stop contributing to illegal wildlife trafficking as we move into the future. Turning to Paul, you're involved in the sustainable aviation fuels industry. As we heard from Jane Hopey, there's been a lot of movement in this area, but, you know, I still hear questions from people that this is a far-off prospect.

Rob Campbell:Yes.

Michael Gill:This is a gimmick. These fuels don't really work. They're not really safe. What is the state of play and how do you see it evolving in the coming years?

Paul Paoletta:Sure. So sustainable aviation fuels, so I may mix some of the terminology, so SAF or renewable jet fuel. It's there, it's happening today. Currently, as we see it, there are key stakeholders in aviation that need to decarbonize. And as we say, defossilize their operations. So while airports— airlines are critical, we look at aviation as a total as to how to decarbonize and defossilize aviation. So as Jane mentioned in the video, aviation fuel is critical to meeting CORSIA's CO2 commitments. It's not the only tool.

Laura Pierallini:Right.

Paul Paoletta:in our toolbox that airlines can use. It's technology, it's the routes that you fly, it's electrification. We support all those, but we are— our specialty is in renewable molecules. Okay, so in that, we go for how to enable our stakeholders. We have a unique position right now because we can create a new The industry has to take a look at this as being a new ecosystem. Just like, again, I'll use an analogy to the electrification of cars. It's a new ecosystem that needs to be built, and that's what we need to do in aviation. With that said, aviation— there's sustainable aviation fuel is a drop-in fuel. It's already certified under the ASTM 1655.

Rob Campbell:Right.

Paul Paoletta:certification. It's a drop-in fuel. No changes need to be done on the infrastructure, whether it's the logistics, the storage, or burning in the engines. No changes or modifications are needed. So it's there today. For the current state, I would say up until last year, the industry has been industry, and I'm talking more about the suppliers now and the producers, we've been producing batches for selected projects. And I would say that's really what's been happening to date. That changed as of Q4 last year, so just a couple months ago, where Neste has begun now producing jet fuel. So we've committed to that. We started production in Q4, and now we have production scheduled all year. this year and beyond. In December, we announced a $1.4 billion investment in a new facility. We are the world's largest already. We'll take it one more level up to do $1.4 billion to focus in on also jet fuel, to be able to produce that. So in the current state, Michael, I would say the— The industry is taking its actions. Our peers, our competitors are also making statements and making their investments. So the industry is, the suppliers and manufacturers are taking their actions. We now need the demand, the demand and the commitment from the airlines and from governments to really implement and use So alternative fuels, they look and they smell and they perform like conventional jet fuel.

Michael Gill:They're a drop-in fuel, so you don't need to change the engines or you don't need to change the infrastructure at an airport. What are the barriers then to why are we not seeing more and more of this on a day-to-day basis?

Paul Paoletta:Yeah, I'll go back to— I'll touch upon the benefits for a second. You know, with renewable jet fuel, You're talking about versus fossil, an 80% reduction in CO2 emission and greenhouse gases. So that's also the PM, the NOx, and SOx, and all that. 80% reduction, at least on the CO2 portion. Now, that's on a lifecycle basis. And— but there's a huge benefit if you burn it. Whoever's burning it and where it's being consumed, there's a local benefit to using renewable fuels.

Laura Pierallini:Yeah.

Paul Paoletta:Before flying here, I asked my team to quickly run the numbers for the airport here and Qatar Airways to be carbon-neutral growth. It would take about a 15% blend of renewable jet fuel into their system here, into the hydrogen system. That would equate to over 1 million tons of CO2 being removed in the atmosphere around Qatar on an annual basis, or in another analogy, 250,000 cars being removed.

Rob Campbell:Wow.

Paul Paoletta:From the roads here. So that's— those are the benefits. As to the barriers, this is a problem that is not just for airlines, and it can't sit just with airlines. It's an industry issue. So we need to create the ecosystem. We need airports and airlines to talk together because they both have assets and operations that are commingled where they can really bring bring the benefit. Just having one focus on it doesn't really help the issue. My last comment about, let's say, the barriers is the mindset of renewable fuels is that it's a burden. We look at it as a burden, as Corsia or this new implementation. We look at it as a value. There's a value proposition, there's a value to be created, and we're not taking— as an industry, we're not taking advantage of that. Just looking at Neste a little bit, since we began our— we're historically from fossil, and we began our transition into renewable fuels and renewable molecules, which goes into plastics and detergents and de-icing applications. Since starting our journey 20 years ago, and more importantly, when we started introducing it into the market 10 years ago, We've grown the market cap of our, of our business, of our company, from $2 billion to $22 billion in 10 years, and it's going higher right now. So the investors recognize it, the market recognizes it, and, and now I'm, I'm optimistic and positive that for the airline industry, they will also recognize that and start making those behavioral changes.

Laura Pierallini:Michael authorized me to raise 2 questions.

Paul Paoletta:Okay.

Laura Pierallini:One is, what about the costs? Are they the same, comparable? And the second, you mentioned about the airport. Is it a problem of access or bringing the fuel into the airport? Are you discriminated compared to the, let's say, traditional fuel company?

Rob Campbell:Yeah.

Paul Paoletta:Okay, Laura, on the first, so are we discriminated? No. What you need is that the lease agreements for the storage tanks Thanks for the infrastructure around the airport. Can be— it's not— it works very, very differently airport to airport. Can be owned or leased out by the airport. But in order to create, let's say, a green journey for passengers, and whatever that means, whether that should be access to— if you fly green, how do you incentivize passengers to fly green?

Laura Pierallini:Yeah.

Paul Paoletta:What is the—

Laura Pierallini:Because it costs more.

Paul Paoletta:Why do you need to think about it? So it will cost more, yes. So to your first point, to your first question, then yes. So it does cost more for now. Do I see it becoming parity with fossil in the near future? And when I say near future, I would say 5-year time span. No. It's expensive. There's a lot of investments, as I just mentioned. We're spending $1.4 billion on the next factory. There are heavy investments being made, but it's scalable, and, but it's more important for, in our opinion, is that there's value to be created.

Laura Pierallini:If you want to come to Italy, they will simply add another tax on the ticket.

Paul Paoletta:Right, and that— So the incentivization is not automatic. So each country has its own way of managing it.

Rob Campbell:Sorry to—

Paul Paoletta:CORSIA is supposed to be, let's say, for the international. What we do see is that it's fragmented because domestic travel is not under CORSIA. It's under the national agreements. International travel is under CORSIA. And then you have these conflicting agendas taking place. I won't express my view as to which one's right. Each country has to manage how they see best.

Laura Pierallini:Thank you.

Paul Paoletta:But taxation by default no one likes, and that's where we think there can be a value created that would encourage people to opt in for renewable fuels, and it gives the airline a unique opportunity to create— or, and the airport— to create a unique environment.

Michael Gill:There's an interesting contrast here between environmental regulation as a barrier to growth and regulation from government which can actually promote renewable energies in different jurisdictions. I'd like to open it to the audience now and see if we have any questions on any of these issues that we've raised or any comments from your side. Peter. If I could, I just have one question in terms of the difficulties. Is not one of the big difficulties actually the distribution of the product, which in a system which is all geared around delivering fossil fuel oil, how do you get your delivery not just from where you're producing it but to remote places around the world?

Paul Paoletta:Right, so Peter, what we've done and what we're working is— so we like to have the dialogue directly with the airlines. because at the end of the day, they're the ones who's actually buying the fuel. We will work with their suppliers to make sure that it's blended. The most— it would be ideally, it would be have the neat, neat being the pure form of the product delivered to the airport. So you're using less volume because under ASTM right now, it's a maximum blend of 50% under current technology.

Rob Campbell:Rob?

Paul Paoletta:But we realize that's a little bit more difficult, so blending will take place more upstream, and then it just gets injected into the current supply channel. So we have strategic relationships with customers like Air BP to supply customers where needed on a case-by-case basis for renewable jet fuel.

Michael Gill:Okay, any other questions from the audience?

Rob Campbell:Hi there. Umberto Gambini from the European Parliament. I had 2 questions, one technical. How long do you have to fly to test the jets and the engines when you fly with clean fuel? So that's a concrete question I don't know about. The second one is, in Europe, you know, as regulators, There is some thinking about in congested airports or where there is problem of not only noise but high-density population to favor cleaner aircraft coming in when it's congested. So, you know, if there is limited capacity, maybe cleaner aircraft, younger ones would be— would have priority. I don't know if you could share— Yes. Your views on this. Thank you.

Michael Gill:Paul, perhaps on the fuels issue and then—

Paul Paoletta:Sure. So under the ASTM method, the testing in this case here for HEFA, which is a form of renewable fuel based off of waste and residue, that's what our fuel is made out of, waste and residue and used cooking oil. It's tested by all the OEMs. So in this case, Boeing owns the process to go before the ASTM board certification. They own it. They tie out with all the OEM manufacturers of all the engines out there, and they test it. And that's one of the difficulties in the industry is that there's— we need to be secure, but security takes time. And so to bring a new fuel into the pipeline, Can take probably up to 10 years, 7 years. So there's a huge lag there. I'm not— I think efficiency can be added, but there is a long lead time. So it's tested, and just to make sure there's comfort, it's tested and fully vetted to make sure that it's safe. Also, the Air Forces, by the way, do use renewable jet fuel.

Rob Campbell:Yeah.

Paul Paoletta:And so they also test it out. So we have different ways to test it and make sure that it's safe. Regarding, let's say, the comment regarding the green, let's say, access for communities, that's right. I mean, these are things that governments can help incentivize. You know, less— I'll take the position less government is better, but there is a place for government to set policy. And that's critical. And so they can, you know, just like any other industry, you know, we're not looking— with the renewable fuels right now, with electrification cars, Teslas or whatever, you have rebates on buying your— or tax-free cars, electric cars, solar panels, wind. It's wonderful. This is how new industries start. And that's where governments can step in and help. guide behavior. In our industry right now, that's not happening. We need that from Europe. We need that from the individual countries to make sure that the industry is supported initially, to make sure it gets developed and moves. And things like access to landing, or more like at Schiphol, More turns, more aircraft movements based off of, you know, lower emissions could become a stimulus to driving the right behaviors or different behaviors.

Michael Gill:Laura, what do you think?

Laura Pierallini:I mean, if we speak about congestion, as you know, congestion may happen because the airport is really going over capacity like Heathrow, or there is the Congestion by the law, which we have the example of Linate in Italy, which has been limited by law. Otherwise, if you look at airports which are not congested, neither commercially nor by the law, like Ciampino or other city airports, yes, your question— the answer to your question is yes, because the reason why, for instance, traffic is moved from those airports to airports farther from the downtown is because, of course, the residents do not want the noise and the pollution created by the aircraft. So if you find solutions for pollution and noise especially, then you can continue to use the convenient city airports which are closer to the downtown, the office, the shopping center, and whatever.

Michael Gill:Any other final questions from the audience before we bring this to a close? Rob, I had one question for you. As I said, you're outside the aviation industry looking in. Do you think this is the area of combating wildlife trafficking is somewhere where we need more government regulation, whether on a national or international level, or is the approach that you guys have taken working with airlines working better?

Rob Campbell:Yeah, it's a good question. To be honest with you, I don't think more regulation is needed. I mean, you can look at CITES for the legal wording on what's illegal and what's not. But what we really need is collaboration. You need companies to— organizations to publicize their stance, a zero tolerance statement. Or, for example, Cathay Pacific, when they took the decision not to carry shark fin, not a popular decision, but— It's a good thing. in light of it, that the right decision. And I think in a few years' time, you know, more of their customers or consumers will agree that was the right thing to do. And it's, you know, asking organizations to take a public stance and make, you know, examples like that stand up for what they believe in. I think that's what's, that's what's really needed.

Michael Gill:Okay, thank you. So I'm going to draw this to a close by just asking one final question to each of our panelists. As I said, there's a lot of pressure coming on the industry to deliver on sustainability from a whole range of different, different groups. And in your view, which group of stakeholders is going to have the most influence? Is it governments? Is it our CEOs? Is it passengers? Is it our employees? Anyone else? What are the stakeholder groups? Paul, I'll turn to you first. Who's going to have the biggest influence as we deliver on our sustainability goals?

Paul Paoletta:For me, it'll be the passengers. So as long as the passengers buy in, and support it, then they will drive the behaviors of the airlines.

Michael Gill:Rob?

Rob Campbell:Yeah, passengers again. As awareness of the trade rises and as you see, you know, instances of animals, you know, hacked to pieces spread across the internet, you'll see a much bigger desire for them to want their companies or their brands that they choose to follow along the same lines that they expect.

Michael Gill:And Laura, the last word to you.

Laura Pierallini:Government and passengers. I add government also. As we know, the European government was starting the EU process. And about passengers, my only concern is whether they've become so used to low fare that if, you know, as you were saying, there is a small associated cost, for the time being they are not mature enough. The new generation can be more mature as we were discussing before.

Michael Gill:Okay, thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, could you join me in thanking our distinguished panelists for that fantastic discussion?

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