Global aviation regulation – a view from regional aviation associations

Transcript

Anita Mosner:Thank you very much, Claudia. And I'm mindful of the fact that we are standing between you on lunch and your way home, but I'd like to introduce to you and bring to the stage Montserrat Barriga, the Secretary General of the European Regional Airline Association.

Montserrat Barriga:Thanks, Anita.

Anita Mosner:Peter Cerdá, the Secretary General of ALTA. And Subhas Menon, the Secretary General of the Asia-Pacific Airline Association. It's very bright. So it seems that the timing of this panel is somewhat fortuitous because our last panel talked a bit about carrier needs, their concerns, what governments are getting right, and what are they getting wrong. This panel will take that conversation a little bit further and talk about how your trade associations advocate for the industry. And we say that that is, in fact, perhaps one of the more challenging operating environments we have seen in recent years. So I think what we would like to do is talk about the organizations, who they are, what their priorities are, and how they work with their stakeholders to drive results for airlines. I'll start by opening it up with Peter to talk about— Peter, what's your top priority for ALTA?

Peter Cerdá:Well, good morning, everyone. ALTA is the regional association for Latin American Caribbean airlines. It's very similar to what was discussed in the previous panel: infrastructure, regulatory framework, and competitiveness. Those are the 3 challenges that are our priorities, and they're very related. Related to government liaison and government interaction in our region, these 3 topics are very much at the, at the foothill of government's visibility, engagement, and that's where we're prioritizing our work on these challenges, and we'll talk a little bit more about that in a few minutes, but those are the 3 priorities.

Anita Mosner:All right, Montserrat, over to you.

Montserrat Barriga:Thank you, Anita. So, first of all, just I just wanted to thank CAPA for putting us on the stage. I think the role that CAPA plays in giving the associations globally and the regional associations into these events, it's amazing, and I really want to thank them for that because you give us, you know, very much the visibility that the work of the associations do for the members. In the case of European Regions Airline Association, for those of you that don't know about us, we are, um, together with A4E, we are a European airline association. So we represent the regionals. We are members, um, we have approximately 55 airlines in membership. They're independent. Um, A4E would represent, uh, the big, uh, large airline groups and major low-cost carriers, whilst we represent all the other airlines, independent ACMI providers, and schedule operators that operate within the European airspace. And we— for our members, the main priority is to keep the regions of Europe connected. So provide with those vital, vital links to secondary destinations, link with the main hubs, economic hubs to their regions, which are sometimes remote and very difficult to access to. And we work with the European institutions and with the, um, with the industry stakeholders to, to promote a sustainable, innovative, and competitive air transport in Europe. And the role of these airlines is essential because they actually provide, provide with links to certain regions where they are not— where they're not air services or airlines Islands and archipelagos, etc. In terms of the priorities, similarly, I think we, we've discussed before the panel, we all shared the same interest: competitiveness, making sure our airlines stay competitive, making sure that the regulations are proportionate, that they are fair, that they are, they are giving us the right regulatory framework to be able to operate and stay competitive. Decarbonization, that's still very important. It was said yesterday that sustainability is not so much, um, uh, the word, uh, in fashion, but it is very, very important. We saw in the, in the panel earlier with Marilyn and, and Rania, sustainability is a key issue in Europe, and we are part of a consortium called Destination 2050 that represents the entire aviation ecosystem in ensuring we actually decarbonize by 2050 and how. Obviously, also maintaining the operational efficiency that is needed by making sure that the airspace reform and the improvement of the ATM gives us the efficiency on the airspace that the airlines need.

Anita Mosner:Subhas, over to you.

Subhas Menon:Thank you, Anita. Association of Asia-Pacific Airlines represents 18 airlines in the Asia-Pacific region. And, you know, Asia Pacific is not a contiguous area nor does it have a single jurisdiction like Europe or America. So instead of each airline dealing with each of the governments that they need to deal with for their operations, they have the association. To talk to the regulators and talk to stakeholders on their behalf on regulatory matters. I would say that the association deals with all the important topics for airline operations— sustainability, safety, cross-border regulations, passenger facilitation, you know, all of this. But I would say that what is of utmost importance currently and for the next few years are supply chain issues and how regulations need to be bolstered and addressed to make sure that these issues are solved, and 2, consumer protection regulations, because we are seeing that there are more and more regulations being thrown out. I think this is a COVID hangover. During the pandemic, governments got used to the habit of coming up with regulations to protect the residents. They got into that habit and they never really shook it off. Now, it's a dime a dozen. Regulations are being thrown out and many of these things affect airline operations. I would say that these 2 issues affect all the major topics that we discuss in the industry: sustainability, safety, and seamless air travel. Why? Because if supply chain issues are not addressed, then sustainability will also be threatened because you are operating aging fleets or aging equipment. Sustainability is not only about addressing climate change. It is also about economic continuity. So if you don't have the right consumer protection regulations, you know, which add cost to airline operations, which add cost to air travel, then you're also affecting economic sustainability.

Anita Mosner:Thank you very much. I mean, I think that raises a very, you know, an interesting topic which is advocating for travel and it raises a question which is You're a trade association representing airlines, but of course you leverage relationships with other stakeholders such as tourism stakeholders and others that have an interest in promoting travel across the sectors. Talk a little bit about the other groups you work with, and also one thing I found fascinating was the multiplicity of regulators that you do deal with. You know, we were talking about dealing with health ministries and consumer protection ministries and others. And it seems that there's some enormous differences among your regulatory frameworks that actually really drive how you do your job. Subhas, would you like to talk about that at all?

Subhas Menon:Yes, let's talk about supply chains, for instance. Everyone talks about how many aircraft have not been delivered or what is the order backlog and things like that, but the end result of all this is that airlines are not able to put on the necessary capacity to address the demand for air services. That is the crux of the problem, all right? And I think governments need to understand the importance of the air transport industry. The air transport industry has been a conduit, you know, for globalization and also for economic development, especially among developing states. So it plays a very important part, you know, and we have been talking about, you know, too few suppliers in the supply chain for a very long time. So that is an issue that should be of interest to all governments, you know. How do we address that? All right? It's not only in Europe and America, you know, that aircraft equipment and engines and parts and components can be produced. They can be produced in many parts of the world. You know, why not governments look into investing, you know, and to address this problem once and for all? You have to invest in these things now, you know, not wait till, you know, 10, 15 years later when, you know, the problem is still there, you know. So that is one area. Secondly, they must understand that, you know, they should not be addressing the symptoms but rather looking at the root cause. Whenever there is a flight disruption, Governments, you know, blame airlines, you know, for the delays and diversions and cancellations, and they add to the cost of travel by insisting that compensation that is provided by the airlines increase. Now, no traveler wants to get on a flight and incur a delay just because they can get some compensation, right? They just want to get from point A to point B on time and to To ensure that that happens, you have to solve the root causes of these flight disruptions and today, that root cause is supply chain issues. And how do you address it? So you have to change the infrastructure. You have to invest in manufacturing. You have to invest in MROs. You know, you have to invest in the supply chain, all right? And this can happen across the globe, not just in America and the US. And you've got We have to start now. The way to do it is not by increasing costs like, for instance, tariffs, all right? This is the worst time to have tariffs, okay? Aircrafts and engines are exempt from the tariffs that the US administration has introduced, but the parts, components, raw materials that are required for manufacturing of industry equipment are not because they are sourced from multiple markets across the globe and all of these incur tariffs. So they lead to trade tensions, they lead to trade barriers. So instead of relying on the free trade regime that the industry has always relied on to implement the supply chains that they have today, They are now forced to see costs increase and also further delays being imposed on the delivery of aircraft engine and parts and components. So you have to take a holistic approach and you have to take an approach that starts to address the root causes of supply chain issues that we are facing today, which has been building up Over the years and only got worse during the pandemic because of border closures.

Anita Mosner:Thanks.

Montserrat Barriga:Montserrat. I think going back to your question, and Subhas has provided with a couple of examples with the tariffs and the supply chain, if I take the example in Europe of how to advance the decarbonization agenda, my members always tell me it's important that others speak about you, not you talking about yourself. How do we get to other organizations and stakeholders to talk about ourselves. And we, back in the time, we used to be very much focused on developing the relationship with the European Commission and DG MOVE. Now, within my, you know, my, my group of partners, when it comes to the decarbonization of, of the sector, we are trying to expand as much as possible the list of stakeholders that we deal with. And we have this structured dialogue together with the Commission, different services, but also other partners. From the tourism industry, from, from the regions, from the national governments, from different associations, shipping, you know, maritime, even other associations. Rani was mentioning this morning just how to ensure that we, we share evident evidence-based approaches. So, you know, data and studies, analysis, but, but also as we We work on building a consensus within the sector. That's very important because we see that in Europe, if we speak with one voice rather than just going as different separate stakeholders, even individual companies, we are heard much more. And then once we have the consensus internally within our membership and together within the stakeholders, the other stakeholders, then we are able to push for a position. Which is, by the way, always complementary. We represent the regional aspects, so we bring to the table, for example, ensuring connectivity is there, that smaller airlines are taken into consideration, that the new technology is going to be deployed on these secondary destinations. We're talking about electric or hydrogen aircraft. But then some others would talk about other issues, and then we complementarily manage to advance the agenda, but as ones, because we tend to work in silos. I see that when we work together, we achieve much more, because Aviation is a complex ecosystem, and unless we address it this way, we don't get anywhere.

Anita Mosner:That's right. Peter, you have an interesting role because you are both a regional vice president for IATA, but also the Secretary General of ALTA. Talk a little bit about your role and how you end up interacting with your stakeholders and advocating your positions.

Peter Cerdá:Hello, Rujing. Both positions. It's— when you look at the trade association with the regional association, at least in the Americas, 95% of the work is very similar. So it's about maximizing efficiencies, and it's also about maximizing and leveraging stakeholders. In a region like ours, I have to oversee 35 countries, which are very different, and in most cases are developing countries, in which—

Subhas Menon:Yes.

Peter Cerdá:Travel and tourism has become a major priority for many of these countries. The problem is when you hear governments talk about travel and tourism, it's about creating the opportunities to really leverage, particularly post-pandemic, but that doesn't go hand in hand with what the actual governments are doing in terms of competitiveness, taxation, and cost regulatory. In our region, we have over 50 proposals or laws with regards to consumer protection. And the one thing that we're seeing in Latin America, our traditional, let's say, liaison with the government has traditionally been the ministries of transport. And in our region, we're seeing the ministries of transport actually do not have the voice within the government. They don't have the leverage. So we're having to pivot in terms of how we go out and build coalitions and build our story to tell in terms of the importance of the aviation industry. And I always say in Latin America, we don't have the luxury that we have in Europe or North America where you have alternate means of transportation, high rail or good highway systems. In most of our countries in Latin America, you don't have that. We don't have rail systems in any of our major countries in terms of long haul. So air travel is It's not only— it's not a luxury, it's a necessity to get people from communities from one side to another, or cargo. What we're trying to do now is, how do we tell the story? How do we leverage the importance of air connectivity and make sure it's always at the top of agenda of our governments? And that has now become the opportunity, but it's also the challenge, because again, the ministries of transport don't have the leverage that the ministries of finance or health or other ministries do? And how do we get closer to the level at the Congress level to educate the senators, the congressmen, the different municipalities on how valuable air connectivity is to the cities that those congressmen or those states that they're representing? Because it's not at the federal level that we're seeing a lot of these proposals. It's at the floor of the Congress that we're seeing proposals coming, uh, are being proposed without any substance to why, um, a consumer protection law may come or why they want to add a cost. A lot of it's based on vote, and, and I think it was Alan that was talking about it, uh, from Kenyan Airways. He said, you know, politicians and congressmen have with coming into their, uh, means of, of representing their states for a period of time, and within those 5 years or 4 years, they want the votes. In our industry, it's not 5 years. Most of our activities and initiatives, developing routes, takes a long period of time. So we're consistently having to combat these actions, which in many cases, there's no substance to do it. There's no reasons to implement new consumer protections or new— but they do it because it's an easy vote for those Congress folks. So what we're trying to do is create more education, making them understand what the value of travel is. And in some cases, the value— the way it's happening is by losing connectivity. The region has enjoyed several years of enhanced connectivity, and we're seeing a great demand on it. But when communities do lose a flight or a destination, that has a significant impact. It's how we leverage that in showing what the value of aviation means to those communities moving forward.

Anita Mosner:Does it mean then necessarily, and I'd like to hear from each of you, I know certainly in the United States, the airports are important partners to the airlines in terms of telling the story about the importance of air service to economic development and the attractiveness of a destination vis-à-vis another. That essentially, if you are looking at where you deploy an aircraft or what community gets an air service, that can be determinative of where, let's say, a new company may be founded. How closely do you work with airports and with local communities to advance your goals?

Subhas Menon:I think it's very important. I think not only airports, but all parts of the ecosystem, as Montserrat mentioned. Ground services, they are also very important. The OEMs are also very important. They also play a big part. A good example is during the pandemic. ICAO used to hold in every region emergency response committee where all the stakeholders used to attend. We used to attend, IATA used to attend, airports used to attend. It was all to discuss about one thing: how do we keep air transport going and what do we need to do to make sure that we survive this pandemic so that when the pandemic is over, air transport can get back on its feet and start growing again? That was a very good exercise for all of us and it was an eye-opener. Instead of bickering over small things like airport fees and other things. We were just discussing how to keep this industry going, right? And then from that, I think the closeness of the industry has survived. So as we approach these problems, I think we have to find a groupthink and find a way in which we can close ranks and find solutions that is a win-win for everyone. For instance, just a few weeks ago, the association held our annual assembly of presidents and one of the discussion topics we had was supply chains and the discussion was conducted by the OEMs. We invited the OEMs to come and talk about the supply chains and what they can do to try and address this problem, what they need the airlines to do to help them to get over this hurdle and what they would expect the governments to do going forward. That was a very good session. We also discussed manpower issues because the other problem the industry is facing today as a result of the pandemic is a severe shortage of manpower in various areas, particularly in the engineering and technical areas. where we have lost a lot of good know-how and expertise. So I think a group think and a group solution where all the stakeholders are involved is the best way to do, and the regional airline associations can facilitate this.

Anita Mosner:Thanks for that. Montserrat, and then Peter.

Montserrat Barriga:Maybe just to add on the airports, I think there was— for sure there is one thing we will never agree with the airports, and it's on the airport charges, and we know that's not—

Anita Mosner:Yes.

Montserrat Barriga:However, we have a lot more to agree on, and I think all the policies that support our airports, and especially in Europe, and I understand it's the same for other parts of the world, but to support the regional airports, because they're— it's these, these airports are loss-making by definition unless they get to a critical mass. So how to help these guys to get to a critical mass, and in the meantime, support Asia-Europe or other associations decisions in ensuring that they get their operational state aid that they need to get to that level.

Dee Borrows:We have—

Montserrat Barriga:we don't have a similar system in Europe compared to the US with this Rally for Air Services.

Anita Mosner:Yes.

Montserrat Barriga:That is a really excellent initiative in the US to make sure all those airports serving those remote communities are still kept alive. And I think that, you know, it's something that we keep raising with the regulators, that it's very important that they need to look at the numbers on how regional connectivity has declined since COVID because the numbers are up in general, in total, but they're not up when it comes to regional connectivity. And how to measure connectivity is one of the key discussions that we have with them, because connectivity is down. Even if traffic numbers are up, connectivity is down. And that's a message that needs to be heard, and they need to do something about it. Otherwise, You know, they will be making the richer richer and the poorer poorer, and that's not— that goes against the cohesion and territorial policy that the European Commission is all about.

Anita Mosner:Peter, over to you.

Peter Cerdá:Yeah, I'll take it up a level because the airports and the OEMs are natural stakeholders. What we're doing in the region is we're actually understanding who are the folks who are using Our airplanes, the bellies, the passengers. In our region, for example, you go to Ecuador, Colombia, 98%— 98% of the flower business is exported outside those 2 countries to Europe, Russia, US. 98%. 100% of those 98% is shipped by air.

Subhas Menon:Hmm.

Peter Cerdá:And when we look at it and the way we're talking to governments If you don't have air connectivity, the flower industry goes to waste. It dies. If the flower industry in the region of Latacunga in Ecuador dies, the entire province dies because the number one employer is the flower industry. So every family member is associated to flower industry one way or to another. What's derived from the flower industry indirectly or directly impacts hospitals, schools. So when you look at it, when we're telling the story to governments and you— and we want to create more connectivity to Ecuador, to Colombia, we're telling them it's not only about bringing passengers for tourism, it's sustaining your economy and expanding your economy on a global stage because Colombia with the flower industry, you're not going to sell it in your country. You're going to sell it and export it around the country. Same thing with the fishing industry in Chile. Air connectivity becomes very important when you're telling the story and you're trying to convince government to make the country more competitive, to deregulate it, to lower cost. It's about how we as an industry are able to advocate on the benefits that's going to have overall on your communities. In the past, I think, as an industry and probably the trade associations and with our members, we've been very good at complaining about high charges and regulation, but we're changing the storyline now. It's about telling governments connectivity is important to your communities and your country, for social and economic well-being. We work very closely with Pfizer, for example, and from a pharmaceutical standpoint, it's over 85% in the Americas in terms of all the medication is transported by air. So that's very telling in how we now go with the pharmacies, the pharmaceutical companies, or with the flour or the fishing to talk to governments about If you impose regulations, if you impose barriers to the air transport system, it's going to have impact on other businesses that are not really associated to us but are very dependent on us. So we are trying to change from the association standpoint how we are going out and advocating and how— and who our new partners are. It's airports and ANSPs are always going to be critical. But we have to go externally and use other industries that have a voice and in some cases are very, very influential in terms of decision-making in governments.

Montserrat Barriga:If I may, if I may, it's just— it's very interesting how everything that Peter is saying would actually be translated into Europe and perfectly used because the level of regulatory burden and cost associated to it is actually putting so much pressure on the airlines that that's when you see the connectivity going down and all these businesses that are supported by aviation also following suit. I think there is definitely a parallel threat here, and we probably all share the same perspective in this case.

Subhas Menon:Yes, but I mean, it is a universal phenomenon. Airports and airlines both want to expand. Expand connectivity. You know, it goes without saying, you know, but it is the regulatory environment that could pose some obstacles to this, you know, whether you're talking about slot rules or you're talking about air traffic rights, you know, all of these are the ones that can, you know, pose obstacles for expanding connectivity.

Anita Mosner:Right, and I think that when you think about externalities And also, I'm thinking about in the US context, we have a potential threat being posed by massive expansion of the burdens of— for ESTA, which is the visa system available for inbound tourism. And if you think about your points you're making about inbound tourism being a driver of value for a community, where, you know, there are communities— let's say I was talking to somebody who does a lot of work in Orlando, Florida, and they are very dependent upon inbound tourism to make these businesses work. I think there are— these are universal stories that have to be told, and understanding these sort of externalities and the cost being imposed upon the system by every incremental rule is something that I think is not necessarily appreciated. Everybody sees their own particular burden saying, oh, this is justified as a matter of policy, But not understanding that when cumulatively, that it can actually kill off an industry. But you wanted to say something.

Montserrat Barriga:Yeah, I think going back to— on that point, in Europe we see that every piece— new piece of regulation has an impact on carbon leakage. And carbon leakage meaning airlines taking decisions to move their operations to other places and passengers taking decisions to fly to non-EU destinations.

Peter Cerdá:And that's again another element added to And I think that as regions or countries put barriers, it actually becomes an opportunity for another part of the world.

Montserrat Barriga:Exactly.

Peter Cerdá:You know, we saw this in Latin America with the US when the US began imposing the tariffs, particularly with Canada. Canadians stopped flying to the US, which is their primary market, and started looking into Latin America. As a result of that, Air Canada, Air Transat, WestJet shifted or pivoted many of their flights that were regular flights into the US, and they've now opened new markets in Latin America. It was in their business plan to do it in a couple of years, and what they've done, they've accelerated. It's the same thing that we've seen with European carriers. So this is, again, as trade associations, it's what we have to make sure that our governments are understanding. Bad regulations can become opportunities for other regions, and you lose out. And when you do lose an airline that's been traditionally flying to a specific market for many, many decades, getting that airline to come back, it's extremely difficult, particularly nowadays where supply chain issues, it's such a major problem. So it's again putting it on the radar on how important, how fragile connectivity is. And to the point before, unfortunately, the only way that we see many governments and and congressmen learn their lessons is when they pull out a flight from their district or their province and all of a sudden now you have an upheaval because you have less connectivity or less flights. So if you lose 1 flight out of 10 from 2 points, that's okay, but when it's that 1 flight a day that connects you to an important city, that has significant ramifications on that community. Again, to a region like ours in Latin America, Where it's very developing, you don't have sufficient connectivity. When you begin to lose it, either domestic or international, it has a significant impact. So in the case of the ESTA in the US, we have to tread very, very carefully because that has a major impact on European citizens that enjoy that benefit and some of the other countries. If it does go in and it increases or imposes an impediment, Europeans will bypass the US and will look at other opportunities. That will have not only a major issue— challenge for us across the Atlantic, but hotels, businesses, tourist attractions in the US will be impacted because Europeans will simply go somewhere else.

Anita Mosner:That's exactly right. Now, Claudia, do we have time for more questions? Do we have time for questions from our audience?

Subhas Menon:Yeah.

Anita Mosner:No, I'm mindful that we're here. Do we have any questions from the audience that we'd like to ask our panelists? I can't see, so somebody's going to have to tell me if there are hands.

Montserrat Barriga:They're all hungry.

Anita Mosner:So we're going to be— let's say we're here next year. What do you think we're going to be talking about? And where do you see the challenges that are looming that we haven't identified yet?

Montserrat Barriga:I think we will be talking about the same. Connectivity will definitely be there. Decarbonization, competitiveness, AI is— we learned it's the thing that we all, you know, be working on. I think it's, you know, powerful tool also for our advocacy and policy work. Yeah, I think it's It's more of the same, but hopefully we'll make progress by then.

Subhas Menon:I would say that—

Montserrat Barriga:Supply chain is not going away, skill shortage is not going away.

Subhas Menon:I would say that what is most concerning and what I think we should be talking about, and I'm sure we'll be talking about it in due course, is the retreat from globalization and the retreat to protectionism and polarization. That's what we are seeing in the world today, right? Trade tensions and supply chain issues that are being held ransom by political movements, transactional politics. This industry has come this far because of the global framework, you know, that it has leveraged, has taken advantage of. Free trade regimes that helped it to establish the supply chains that we have today. You know, you talk about sustainability also, you know, it is a global movement, you know, and ICAO is driving that, you know. So I think that is what we should be talking about, you know, because if governments continue on this path, you know, then it's going to be very difficult for us to get back to where we were.

Anita Mosner:Yeah, so we— that's interesting you talk about the sort of threat imposed by governments. Do you see particular threats upon open skies?

Peter Cerdá:On?

Anita Mosner:The threat of open skies and restrictions.

Peter Cerdá:I think in my region it's actually the opposite. We're looking more towards open skies and, you know, we see— one of the last countries is Argentina, which was a very protected country, and with the government that came in, they basically blew the skies open and it's been very, very favorable. I think that over the next year, the geopolitics is going to play a big role. In my region, we have over close to a dozen elections that will be taking place and that has always a severe impact in a region like ours because the pendulum tends to go from the extreme left to the extreme right. It's rarely ever in the middle, so the changes from one side to another are much more drastic than it could be in the US or in Europe, but I do believe some of the geopolitical decisions that are taking place in the US, in Europe, and other parts will have an impact in terms of how some airlines actually make decisions and take decisions. Considering some of the limitations that we have today, it's how they will be forecasting growth in different types of the region. I do agree. I think we will still be talking about many of the same decisions, but I think this is a year going into next that a lot of the decisions that are made by some of our politicians are going to have impacts in terms of how we decide, in terms of how the industry will be moving.

Anita Mosner:That's an interesting— that's a really interesting point. I know certainly— Claudia, are you looking to close? Okay. One closing comment that I'd like to ask of you is, when you look at the one thing that you can change in terms of either assets, resources, is it communications with your government, is it communications with communities? How do you, how do you see getting your message across in the next 5 years? No, are there ways ways in which you're going to change in which you communicate with your stakeholders?

Peter Cerdá:I think what— one of the things is we have to embrace social media in a much more effective way. Unfortunately, social media in our industry is seen as negative because we're only spotlighted in the media, particularly social media, when something goes wrong. We as an industry have to do a better job utilizing these types of channels to communicate the good that the industry is doing on a daily basis. We cannot be reactive to an incident or closure or mishandling of a passenger. We have to change the mindset in terms of how we communicate and make it more favorable instead of more defendable. And I think that's one of the things that at least we're trying to do in our part of the world is how do we use Media, real-time media, in terms of telling the really good stories and how important air transport is to our social and economic well-being.

Montserrat Barriga:I think to that, again, having others, other important stakeholders speaking about the value of aviation and not just us speaking about the value of aviation, that's the goal. I think that would be a complete game changer. We're working towards that, and hopefully it'll happen.

Subhas Menon:Yes, I agree. You know, I think we are too inward-looking. I think our communication, you know, has to reach a wider audience, you know, and also consumers. How do we, you know, reach out to consumers? Some of the issues that we face are issues that they experience in their travels, you know. So we need to expand our circle.

Anita Mosner:Thank you very much. Well, I think with that, we'll— oh, we have a hand, please. Yeah, but we have to get a mic to you so that we can hear.

Dee Borrows:Hi, everyone. Dee Borrows, journalist and lecturer in hospitality and tourism. Thank you, leaders, for your insightful conversation. I think one of you mentioned— so this is about supply chain, right? And this is more have to do with the user experience, passengers like myself, customers, right? And especially if you do travel very often. You spoke about the air connectivity, how it's vital to communities, to passengers, one of you mentioned, and also the resilience of the economic resilience. So my question is, when an airline do codeshare or they have partnership alignment, right?

Anita Mosner:Yeah.

Dee Borrows:When a customer, when a passenger do travel and your bag goes missing, for example, you haven't gotten your bags, they always say it's the end carrier, right? So there you go, the supply chain in terms of information, the supply chain, I guess, procurement or logistics. How do you see, how do you, how would you underpin that, or is there a value, or you might undervalue the supply and the journey of the customer in that regard?

Montserrat Barriga:I'm not sure I understand the question.

Peter Cerdá:What I'll say is the passenger journey has to become much more visible, much more of a priority. I think we're now at a stage that the passenger journey should and needs to be a priority of our— of the airlines. Obviously, mishandling baggage is always an inconvenience, but we have to do more on the entire passenger journey. I think because of the crises and some of the challenges that we have, we haven't focused on it enough. And this certainly— if you say, you know, what— where should we be in a year, that's an area that I think we have to do better with airports, with suppliers, with airlines in terms of how we improve and enhance the passenger journey, particularly how we use AI and technology moving forward.

Anita Mosner:Yeah, and I think that's right. It's the trend. It's the drive for transparency and information. So what I think with this, we're going to have to— we can continue this conversation for quite a bit longer, but we'll have to say thank you very much to Subhas, to Montserrat, and to Peter. We'll be— I guess we have a luncheon, so if we're around, we'd love to have a chat and talk about any questions you have. Thank you.

Montserrat Barriga:Thank you.

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