Environmental Sustainability and the path towards net zero

Transcript

Rich Maslen:Progress towards greater sustainability is now a major driver of airline strategy, whether it's to the customers, whether suppliers, or to the regulators. Airlines have ambitious climate goals and are pursuing a multi-pronged approach to achieving them. Yet the industry's credibility around sustainability remains marginal in the eyes of many. And how the industry will achieve these sustainability targets and whether it can cover the cost to do this are still very open questions. We're very early on this pathway. We're making a lot of progress, but there's still a long, long way to go. The air industry has embraced major sustainability targets in the last few years, which is very creditable, but now becomes that difficult task and a delicate task of meeting these ambitions and delivering on these promises that have been made. while also remaining financially viable, as we've highlighted previously, as an industry, and the airlines are not the most sustainable business in terms of financial returns. So I'm delighted to be joined up here. We've got Suzanne Bremski, who's Head of Customer Experience and Sustainability at Harbour Air. Beside her, we've got Carrie Song, Senior Vice President, Renewable Products at Neste. Then we have Angela Avery, Group EVP, Chief People, Corporate and Sustainability at WestJet.

Angela Avery:Hi.

Rich Maslen:And Valérie Durand, Head of IR and Corporate Sustainability at Air Canada. So I think the best way to start is to start with the 2 biggest airlines here in Canada. Emerging technologies are really showing, showing promise. We talk a lot about SAF and we'll come on to SAF a little bit shortly with that. But in the near term, as airlines, what are you doing mainly to achieve the need to be net zero carbon by 2050. So Angela, you're closest. What's, what's, what's your, your views with that?

Angela Avery:Well, you're gonna have to forgive me because I'm going to use a hockey analogy right now, but I think what we're doing is we're grinding in the corners right now, and that's how we're actually scoring the goals on sustainability. And it's really through investments in fleets. So every time there's a new variant of a new aircraft, it's 20% on average of emissions intensity savings. And so it's the investments in fleet, it's the investments in things like the decisions we make at YYC and the other airports in our network, where whether that's having air conditioning coming in from the airport into the aircraft, decisions like single-engine taxiing, and things like taking TVs off our aircraft, and the decisions that we make to make our aircraft lighter within the aircraft itself, even the catering decisions. that we're making. And so from our perspective, there's a lot that we can be doing and that we are doing in the airline space right now to decarbonize by essentially having very sustainable operations and always having our eye on continuous improvement.

Rich Maslen:Valérie, your views?

Valérie Durand:Yeah, well, you took the words out of my mouth with referring to hockey, so I was gonna say that, you know, having a net-zero ambition is an ambition and it's important. Including for our Habs fans in Montreal, because we need to hold on to that ambition to make it back to the playoffs one day. But, you know, in the near term, when you look at it, there's only a few bucket of measures that could be used to really start progressing towards that net-zero goal. So, when you look at operations and the efficiency in operations, that is the most near-term opportunity for us. So, looking at our fleet, how do we Renew our fleet. So when you look at the fleet that is coming into— the aircraft that are coming into our fleet, these are more efficient than the aircraft that they replace, just like your car at home, right? So, but then looking at the measures— don't press on the gas so much, same thing for the aircraft, winglets on the aircraft. So, so looking at ways of how we can modify our procedures and our fleet to be more efficient is one of the most near-term opportunities.

Angela Avery:Thank you.

Valérie Durand:But obviously, as you look at this ambitious goal, you kind of have to break it down with near-term, medium-term, longer-term. And the more longer-term you become, then technology becomes increasingly important, obviously. But in the near term, these are some of the measures that are actually concretely in place.

Rich Maslen:Yeah, I definitely feel it's a pathway we have to go down, and there's no golden ticket that's the answer. We've got to follow various Various different things. Now, I think what we see that there's a lot of roadmaps out there that people have put in place. And I know IATA recently has done a good analysis of all these and tried to build a best practice for this. But, you know, it's quite clear that sustainable aviation fuel is seen as offering the greatest opportunity for us to reduce our CO2 emissions. Carrie, can you give us a bit more insight into where we are with this? And how we can— how the process is going to go. There's lots of talk about we have a lack of availability. There's also talk that a lot of the big airlines with the financial backing they have are being able to get into the market and make these great announcements saying we're going to buy all this SAF and we're going to be able to use it. But there's a lot of other businesses that are unable to get to that level to be able to do that and are sort of— they feel a little bit inferior to it. So What is the situation? I know there's a lot of belief that once we hit a certain point, the critical mass changes and we can accelerate very quickly. So where are we on that pathway?

Carrie Song:From a Neste perspective, we definitely are ramping up the production side, right? So for 2024, our projection is that we're going to be reaching 1.5 million tonnes of SAF production coming from our refineries. And then if you think about from the awareness perspective, I mean, throughout the day, I'm hearing this loud and clear in terms of the recognition and awareness of the importance of SAF and how it shall continue to play even a bigger role for our aviation industry. So we're really seeing this is getting more and more critical in terms of the acceptance level and then also the adoption level. And then which, like you said, and then which Quite a few panels earlier of the day talk about it, right? We need the support from the policy perspective. But yes, admittedly, at the moment, the pricing for SAF is between 3 to 5 times much higher compared to the Jet A. But in reality, we will think about the actual usage compared to the overall pool of Jet A is about like 1% or even less than that. So it is extremely small at the moment. So that's why I said, Its ability to drive a bigger impact to the aviation industry is huge. The potential definitely is there, and it can really make a bigger difference. When we think about whether that's a domestic flight, and then you talk about intercontinental flight, certain type of flights, there are limited available of options to consider for defossilization, right, for carbon reduction. So that's one. We realize and we acknowledge SAF is here to stay, and SAF are the ones critical, especially for those intercontinental flights. So I would say the importance is really the awareness, really drive understanding, appreciate this is a problem that we all need to play a big part. And indeed, the current level of pricing is high. It's, again, it's because of the supply, right? The limited number of supply. And and also because of the demand pool overall compared to the Jet A pool is really not on the same dimension. I think in order to really drive a catalyst to really accelerate adoption, then the policy really has to play a bigger role.

Rich Maslen:Before I come on to you, Suzanne, about a few things, Angela, I know WestJet recently have signed a deal about SAF. How easy was it for you to do that? there is that limited demand. How was you able to, to, to, to get that step in?

Angela Avery:Yeah, no, it's a great question. And in fact, Carrie and I were just talking about this before the panel because it was actually through Neste that we were able to acquire the supplies that we used in our very first SAF pilot. So we announced our first SAF pilot at the end of 2022, and it was a pilot where we were essentially making sure that we had an OD pair, essentially one particular route where we made sure we had SAF on board all of those And it was a flight between Calgary and San Francisco, and we deliberately chose that route because the only place we could procure SAF was San Francisco. And so I think what Carrie alluded to is the policy supports need to be there in order for the supply to be there. And so we really truly think that supply-side incentives are going to be required for us to actually get SAF at commercial scale. We also just recently announced that we did acquire what we think may be the first commercial allotment of SAF that's been blended in Canada, and we just announced that in the last couple weeks. But when we're announcing things like a SAF purchase that's been blended in Canada, we're talking about tens of thousands of litres. We're not talking about millions of litres, which is what, in fact, the carriers in Europe are able to acquire at this point. And so a lot of it, it's supply-demand Carrie just said, but you really need to have those supply-side incentives to have the capital investments required for the refineries to be able to provide that biojet to us.

Rich Maslen:Okay, now obviously we'll come back on to SAF in a little while. It's not the only solution. There are other pathways to go. There are other options that perhaps fit markets better than long-haul flying, even medium and short-haul flying. So Suzanne, from what you're doing at Harbour Air, there's some sort of quite exciting developments there in terms of looking at alternative power plants, looking at alternative options for flying. Can you give us a quick overview on what you're doing?

Suzanne Bremski:Absolutely. One of the speakers from Air Canada, I think, said it very well earlier today of playing where you have the right to win and leaning in on strategies that make sense for you and your operation. So at Harbour Air, we are taking a different tack We have an electric plane. So we have electrified a de Havilland Beaver. We had our first flights in 2019. We've done 78 test flights to date, which we're very excited about. We are going through the certification process right now with the intent of flying commercially with travelers in 2026. So, and we've recently signed a an LOI with our engine manufacturer, which is MagniX, for the purchase of 50 engines. So, we are intending to not only convert our fleet, but the fleet of third-party carriers as well, in an innovation hub that we intend to locate on the West Coast. So, exciting.

Carrie Song:We—

Suzanne Bremski:but, you know, leaning into what makes sense for individual carriers, we are a regional floatplane operator based on the West Coast. Our largest plane has 19 seats. We fly at lower altitudes and shorter haul flights. So for us, electrification absolutely makes the most sense. We also are located in British Columbia, where there are some advantages to electrification, including things like the grid is extremely clean. So you know the the carbon intensity. differential between traditional aviation fuels and electric is really, really broad.

Rich Maslen:So coming across back to you, Valérie, I'm interested that we as an industry, we've worked very hard and we're doing a lot in terms of improving aircraft, improving engines, investing in all this, but we're still seen as the evil to the environment. People like to pick on us. What can we do better? You know, what— in many ways, what are we doing wrong, and how can we be better about this? Do we need to collaborate more? Do we need to really highlight the value and economic value of air travel more?

Valérie Durand:Yeah, well, that's a good point, because when you look at it, global emissions contributes to 2 to 3 2 to 3% of greenhouse gas emissions around the world. So every day in our cars, we probably contribute to a lot more. So I think it comes back to awareness and dealing with it as an industry. I think this is going to be something that has to be dealt with as an industry, and Angela spoke about the policy aspect. It becomes increasingly important, and I'll explain why. And I think John did a really good job this morning explaining the impact of policy on a carrier's operations and ultimately the customer. But when you think about it in Canada, you know, we all live within 150 kilometers from the US border, right? And so if we do not have the policy environment to import SAF, to produce SAF locally, when you think about it, we have a huge opportunity in Canada. In Alberta, you Alberta, you are the expert producers and you have canola, and so we have an opportunity available to us, but it all needs to come together in the chain in a logical way. So the airlines can do their part, but everybody needs to do their part, and we have to have that balanced approach. So we need to have a balanced approach to incentivize that production. Then you need to have that balanced approach to support the operating costs related to it on a longer-term basis. And everybody needs to do a part in that mechanism. And if you don't do that, or if you do do that, the opportunity that you do is you create jobs, you create different jobs in this country, you support socioeconomic development at the core, right? And if you don't do that, then you don't create those jobs, right? And if you don't do that, then you disbalance the cost between competitors, right? And so what happens when you have your population living 100% 150 kilometers from the border, they have choices, right? And so it's very important to have that balanced approach, to have everybody play their part in the chain, and to have it in a way that balances at the global scale too. So the airlines are doing their part. We've done our part of the equation. We're renewing our fleet. We are committing to purchasing SAF. We are currently purchasing SAF and using SAF. We have a commitment to go to 1% of our fuel use by the end of 2025. We're well on track for that. But beyond this, the entire infrastructure needs to be looked at at the industry level from, you know, from the cradle— I don't want to say cradle to grave, but from A to Z, I'll say. But that's what's required here for this to really work. And look, we've been in this business for more than 85 years. We intend to be in this business for more than 85 years going forward. So it requires us to look at our business differently, structure it differently, and it requires the entire industry to look at this in a different way as well.

Rich Maslen:So we've got some questions coming in. Please let me remind you that if you have got any questions and you want to put them on Slido, please do. We'll try and get along to them. I will ask you later on if you actually want to ask any, any questions in the room. We talk a lot about it. We talk, you know, sustainability and what we're doing, and passengers are always very quick to say, well, actually, I want to fly with this airline because they've got a more sustainable policy and it works. But at the end of the day, what we say and what we do are 2 completely different things. We saw this a lot with offsets that, you know, as airlines you would offer them to, to customers and only a small proportion of them actually paid for them. You know, what is the difference? Are you seeing true belief now in customers that they, they actually do want to and are willing to pay for it? And obviously at Harbour Air, you know, we come to you afterwards, you're doing things like this already with premiums on the tickets. It'd be interesting to hear how willing customers are to pay for them. So Angela, can we start with you initially? From the WestJet perspective, is there an appetite for people, and are they willing to pay?

Angela Avery:No, there isn't yet. And so I think when we look at the opportunity that we provide to guests to be able to buy offsets, and I think this is across all sectors that are in fact using carbon-intensive fuels, same thing on the car side, people at the pump will not pick the selection where they get the offset selection. That's not That's not what consumers are actually doing. And that's why I completely agree with Valérie. This has to be a systemic approach to sustainability. This has to be something where, as a collective, we lean in to become a more sustainable sector across all of the sectors that are using carbon-intensive fuels. And so we're not seeing individual choices that are making a difference in a material way in relation to those sustainability goals. Sustainability choices that are available to them. But I do see that there, when you look at public opinion and when you look at the discourse that's taking place now, the fact that people know what SAF is when I go to a family barbecue, there is a real interest in us decarbonizing and being part of the solution for a decarbonized sector. And so I think the things that Valérie was talking about, this is a matter of our guests are smart. And so I think being able to explain to guests that the steps that we're taking and the steps that we need to take, they are going to be just as interested as we are in continuing to find ways to decarbonize, because it is an existential threat. At the end of the day, we do need to decarbonize in order to have the social license to operate, and I think that the more that we can explain things to guests— offsets is one that's particularly interesting I find that our sector has been actually way ahead of the curve in making sure that our offsets are transparent, are auditable, and are ones in relation to activities that actually are offsetting other carbon-emitting activities. Not all sectors have signed on to a regime like Corsia to make sure that those offsets are something that are auditable and believable, and so I think we just need to do a better job, in part, in talking to our guests and to the consumers and to the travelling public writ large about the efforts that we're making in our sector to continue to improve our emissions intensity.

Rich Maslen:Suzanne?

Suzanne Bremski:So, yes, so I— it's interesting. Harbour Air has been offsetting since 2007, so we started doing GHG accounting And from 2007 to 2024, we essentially offset all of our emissions associated with operational aviation fuel, as well as our corporate footprint. Offsetting, I think, is an important tool in our sustainability strategies for all of us. Offsetting is really— we've recently sort of switched strategies Thank you. I think I'll take the first question, which is, how do we differentiate our strategy somewhat from offsetting? Offsetting, we feel, is really appropriate for emissions that are hard to abate. Operational aviation fuel is well within that space for many, many carriers. SAF is one option. More efficient aircraft bodies is another, but really, it is a very hard-to-abate emission and has been for a long time. Forever. We, with our ePlane program, we're on a bit of a mission here to make the emissions associated with aviation, with operational aviation fuel, avoidable in the future. So recently we have shifted away from offsetting our emissions associated with fuel, and we've moved to insetting. So essentially Investing within the R&D associated with our ePlane program. We have, for a very long time, had an offset fee on our fares, and this is now a sustainability fee that essentially goes to the R&D associated with our ePlane program. We get questions on it from travelers, but overall, we found that travelers within our region are excited about our sustainability efforts. The ePlane is seen as a very cool, like, made-in-BC project.

Angela Avery:There's lots of pride.

Suzanne Bremski:So we've recently shifted strategies that way.

Rich Maslen:Okay. So a lot— we talk about cost and there's always a lot of cost with it. Carrie, I think I'm not going to ask the airlines because I know how they'll answer it. So it's probably best that I ask you. Sorry. But how does the industry finance this transition to net And where does this burden fall? Should it be on the airlines? Should it be on the passengers? Should it be on the governments? Who do you think ultimately should be responsible for helping support this transition?

Carrie Song:I think our panelists earlier have already really answered it, I think, in a way which I support, which is everybody needs to play a role, right? So it's not really a single party. It's about passengers, people like you and I, we all fly. And airlines, the government. So it's really this whole ecosystem that will need to play their role from different angles, right? And also, when you think from the option perspective, I'm seeing there are different options for different countries or different states to consider. Like, for example, when earlier you talked about the systematic change, it just reminded me about how—

Angela Avery:Yeah.

Carrie Song:Singapore, they're going to be doing, which basically every single flight they take off from the airport, they're going to basically have that percentage in their ticket. So there's different ways they can really drive this in a systematic approach. It doesn't mean that approach is going to be applicable for here in the Canadian market, but I think at least that evidence shows it as a valid reference that there are different ways that we can really drive this that make it suitable for different markets. So I would just— that's where— and then earlier you talk about technology as well. Like, for us, we also looking into different technology, and what we can contribute is also in the diversity of the feedstock we're using, right? So today we have more than 10 different type of feedstock we use to produce biofuel. We are continue driving— actually, 25% of our people are focusing on technology-related functions. And then we look into, like, for example, NVO, right? Those, like, really novel possible feedstock functions or possible raw material that would help to expand the pool of the availability for SAF eventually.

Rich Maslen:Okay, thank you. So we've got a few questions here. I think we've answered that one. So yeah, something we was going to go on to anyway, so we move on to it. And that's one, it's just Valérie, this agreement that Air Canada has with Heart Aerospace is quite exciting. It's, it's a number of airlines are going down this pathway. You know, what's your view? Why, why have you teamed up with, with Heart? And, you know, what do you hope to gain from this, this experience?

Valérie Durand:Yeah, so we've announced a partnership with, with Heart Aerospace for the purchase of 30 regional hybrid electric So, we like Heart, we like their management team. The aircraft is in development right now, and so obviously the entry into service is still a bit unknown at this point. We're looking a bit further out in this decade, but as I talked about how this impacts every element of the ecosystem, I'll say, you know, these aircraft, the airports, you know, when you've—

Carrie Song:Yeah.

Valérie Durand:When you've purchased an electric car at home, you know you need to get a different plug. Well, it's the same thing at the airport. And so, where are you going to put those aircraft becomes some of the questions that you ask yourself, because to your point, not all electricity is created equal. So, where's the best place to put this aircraft? And as a network carrier, obviously, you look at, you know, safety is always number first, first and always. So, You know, if there's a safety issue, where's your secondary airport? So it creates a whole bunch of new questions on how do you introduce something like this into your fleet. So it's definitely exciting. It's definitely a nice opportunity. It is a hybrid electric aircraft, so, you know, it is the first step in that direction. Before commercial aviation has a fully electric aircraft, I think we're a little bit further out again, but it is a good step.

Rich Maslen:What's the timescale in terms of bringing it to market?

Valérie Durand:Well, right now what we're projecting is somewhere towards the end of this decade, but again, it is in development, so more to come on that, but it's more towards the end of this decade, yeah.

Rich Maslen:In quite a few panels today, there's been talk about the challenges of operating in Canada, just the dynamics of Canada as a market. You know, we have a question here of what policy changes do you think will drive the biggest step change in SAF production in Canada? Obviously, the government's got to get involved in this. It'd be interesting to get the viewpoint from the airlines, but also from you, Carrie, from Neste, in terms of working in a country and how the different attitudes impact how you're doing things. So actually, Carrie, if we start with you, what's— how can Canada work better in the global market, and how does it compare with other countries?

Carrie Song:If I look at the example that has been proven working for some of the other places, like in the States, for example, is really that the platform needs to be technology neutral. So it's really encouraged because we need to focus on the big game, right? Why we're suggesting this and that. I mean, the goal is that we want to basically drive the the carbon reduction, right? So if we really focus on that's our goal, then in terms of what is the means to get there— we had a conversation earlier on this— in terms of what the means to get there would basically look into what is best for the customers or for the airlines or for the consumers. So I wouldn't really say you focus on a particular path. Basically, you focus on particular means to hit the goal. Instead, you focus on the goal, What do you want to achieve? Give a percentage ambitious enough, and then allow the technology, variety of it, right, to play their role, right? When you drive that, then they will drive the best possible synergy and also fair competition among themselves to give options to the consumers, right? Don't really pick the losers or winners or preferences. Let the market choose. I would say those are, In my opinion, based on what I see in the US, and then that has been one of the good success factors for the West Coast on the biofuel side.

Rich Maslen:I'm seeing lots of nodding heads on your comments there. From the airline perspective, governments don't make the right decisions for airlines. They make the right decisions for themselves. How are you seeing them backing you in terms of supporting what you're trying to achieve on sustainability?

Valérie Durand:Well, I want to make it clear here, I think there is progress. I think if we look at the recent federal budget announcement, there is some progress being made with the Clean Fuel Fund and the clean fuel regulations, and there is, you know, an envelope available for biofuels and SAF. Now the question becomes, how much is for SAF, and is that enough? Now the answer is it's not enough. It's a step in a good direction. It's a way to have the framework for supporting production, to encourage production. But again, I'll go back to that balanced approach. You need to support the startup of production, but then you need to also support the entire ecosystem. So you need to support the operational costs that come with it. And so you need to incentivize the production, you need to incentivize the purchase as well, so you don't imbalance something along the way in the thread. So there is progress, it is welcome. We're hoping we continue to make progress on this matter, and it needs to be a balanced approach.

Rich Maslen:Okay, there's an interesting question from somebody there that, yeah, I think it quite might be a little bit early to answer it, but is there an airline that set the gold standard for sustainability and SAF and why? Carrie, it might be best to get your viewpoint because you've probably dealt with lots of different airlines. I don't expect you to name just one and say it's the best, but which airlines are really showing progress? Have you been impressed with how they've approached you?

Carrie Song:I think earlier there was a question between say and do, right? So I mean, we are true believers to focus on the do, right? So from that perspective, you see the announcement that we We recently bring out for quite a few. So I think it probably would not be fair to highlight one versus the rest. But we are seeing, you know, for the airlines that, you know, they give out a goal and then more and more they are really taking the action. That's really what we promote, the most critical ones. Okay, so you give a target or you do not give a target, but at least you are really driving the action. And that's really what's going to support the most. From the supply perspective, if the demand is there, supply will come, right? So I would say, even just the last couple weeks, and there are already 2 to 3 major announcements coming out with the collaboration with Neste.

Angela Avery:And if I could build on that, I think I wouldn't pick a particular airline as being more successful or not. I would pick on particular geographies of being more successful. And so I think Canada's got a real opportunity right now, and I think it was great news to see that biojet actually was included in the latest budget announcement, because before that it was biofuels more largely, and so it was nice to have biojet included specifically for the first time in Canada just in the last couple of weeks. But when you look at the world globally, where is SAF being purchased? And it's being purchased in places like China, like Europe right now, because that's where those policies or supports were in place first. We're seeing a complete step change in what's happening in the United States right now with their IRA, their Inflation Reduction Act. And so that administration came out with a very ambitious goal. They wanted 30 billion gallons of SAF produced by 2030. And it's, it's great when you've got an ambitious target like that, and then also backing it up with the legislation and with the policy supports and the tax incentives to actually make that happen. And so I think Canada can look to the rest of the globe right now and pick and choose the policy supports, because I agree with Carrie, we shouldn't be picking winners and losers. I think there are going to be all kinds of purveyors of SAF in the next 5 to 10 to 15 and 20 years and beyond. And so we shouldn't be picking winners or losers, but we should be picking a policy framework that actually supports the development of SAF. And we have all of the ingredients in Canada, as Valerie's already pointed out. So hang on, I'm going to ask this room. If you're not from Calgary, please raise your hand. Did you fly here? Keep your hand up.

Valérie Durand:Right?

Angela Avery:And so from that perspective, aviation in Canada is not a luxury. It helps us make the business case and keep our social license if we continue to make it very plain to everyone that our economy depends on it, and frankly, our livelihoods, and also our quality of life depends on aviation. And so, from that perspective, it's all in our interest in Canada to make sure that we've got the government policy supports in place to create the SAF ecosystem that we need to continue to have that social license.

Valérie Durand:Very well said.

Rich Maslen:And what we see here is you have the 2 biggest airlines in Canada, side by side brings us nicely to the question, how are Canadian carriers working together to be part of the sustainability solution? How can we work together for the good of the planet and our industry? Are you collaborating together to be able to create this voice to go to government, to go to suppliers, to go to customers, and, you know, explain exactly how we are moving the industry forward?

Valérie Durand:Well, I mean, there's several ways, right? I mean, we're a founding member of CAAPA, CSAF, which is a cohort of producers, airlines, government, federal, provincial, to really try to unlock those opportunities for Canada. There's also working groups following the Canadian Aviation Action Plan that are put together through Transport Canada that are exploring different streamlines of the aviation plan, and industry is present along with different players in the in the supply chain and the operating chain. So, I mean, like I said, this is an industry challenge and it's a long-term industry challenge. So we have to come at it as an industry. We have to collaborate as an industry because at the end of the day, as you said, it's not one size fits all. It's not one magic bullet that's going to solve this. This is what I call a wicked challenge that you have to come at it in different ways. Policy is one, taxation Regulation is another, mandates is another, incentives is another, commercial products is another, so we really have to work at it as an industry.

Rich Maslen:So is anyone brave that wants to actually ask a question rather than anonymously? This anonymous is asking lots of questions, I have to say.

Suzanne Bremski:Can I add one thing to what Valérie said also? On the topic of airlines working together, I think I think, and we were chatting earlier about the— aren't we fortunate to live in a world where there's different technologies that are being developed right now to support sustainability for our industry in general? So, from SAF to hydrogen to electric to hybrid, I think that you're going to see more and more narrowing in on those and those converging. Who's to say that something off of an electric aircraft doesn't help to one day facilitate a hybrid component in a larger aircraft?

Angela Avery:I think that's a really good point.

Suzanne Bremski:aircraft, right? So, yes, I think that from our perspective too, we're doing something a little bit different, but I feel like there's lots of opportunity to work together, to share knowledge. We're all marching towards similar goals here.

Rich Maslen:Obviously, there's a lot of businesses that are looking to alternative options. Airbus, I think Boeing would, but it's, it's got a lot on at the moment. And, um, but any manufacturer is looking at new options, new power plants. Um, you know, your e-plane, Suzanne, is, is quite exciting, but it's— it is a niche solution. It is a, a small capacity aircraft. But as you say, it can give the progress to see it works at that level. Can we bring it up to a, to a higher capacity aircraft? Um, Someone out there wants to know a bit more about the ePlane. It'd be interesting to know what your timescales are on the developments with it. And, you know, the key thing is the range. You know, it's great to have this solution, but is the aircraft able to actually fit into a marketplace that works really well within Canada?

Suzanne Bremski:You're right. Absolutely. That's a great question. So we have ePlane 1.0 currently that has flown 78 test flights. We're developing the second one, which we are hoping to carry passengers on. So, the next milestone, once we complete all of our certifications, we're hoping in 2026 to be flying passengers. The range currently is about a 30-minute flight with reserves, which fits in really nicely with our network, as our average flight is about 30 minutes. So, this is, again, is very appropriate for us. Within our network, our longest flights are about 1 hour, so we're currently looking at where it most makes sense, which locations to start to have ePlane services.

Rich Maslen:Another question here, I think they actually answered the question in the question. What measures are your airlines taking to ensure current emissions are reduced? Not running APUs while on the ground, connecting to on-ground power, reducing waste. So yeah, I think you've answered the question. question, but Angela, Valérie, what's— is there anything more you can add to that?

Angela Avery:Well, it's all of the above, right? I mean, and that's where it's something too that it has to be really— there's a bit of a mindset as well in relation to, in relation to this. It has to be continuous improvement and continuing to use the new technologies that we have, because even when you look at things like the data that we now have, we can tell you with specificity how many cocktails will be consumed between Calgary and Cancun on a flight. So we shouldn't have more catering than we need on board those aircraft, and equally, it might be quite a different catering data set when we're talking about flying to remote parts of Canada where we're supporting people with their workforce needs. And so from that perspective, we're starting to use more data to be able to actually drill down and understand weight on board the aircraft. But it's all of the above, and whether that's new Nav Canada systems and other things that we're using to make sure that we are also navigating as efficiently as we can, we'll do anything in that relation. And so it's also trialling new technologies. We've started adding new kit to some of our older 737s, and reducing your emissions by 1 or 2% is meaningful over time. And so those are the things that we're keeping an eye on.

Rich Maslen:Okay, well, like, we've got not a lot of time left, so I'd just like to go down the panel with each of you. And the interesting thing here is how much of a change is this for the industry? You know, people say it's just— it's evolving as an industry and adapting. Some people are saying this is a complete revolution for air travel. This is something that's going to change the way we fly. I think it's a combination of both. That's just such a big change. Suzanne, for you, is it an evolution or a revolution for aviation?

Suzanne Bremski:Oh gosh, that's a, that's a great question. I think we're always evolving. I think that Angela made a really good analogy, a good hockey one, about grinding away at the corners, but this sort of idea of, you know, innovating in the corners and coming in. I think what we're seeing more and more We see it from WestJet and from Air Canada. We do the same, is innovating where it makes sense, evolving over time, so building sustainability into all elements of operation and considering it. So things like electric shuttles, ancillaries that you provide. So in terms of whether it's an evolution or a revolution, I see it more of an evolution. Evolution. We feel with the ePlane that we are leading the charge, pun intended there, on electric aviation, but I think that it's a learning process. We've seen a lot of evolution with respect to sustainable transportation, for example, for ground transport, and I think that aviation is the next step in this process.

Rich Maslen:Carrie?

Carrie Song:So I think one thing we can predict is that it's going to continue changing, right? So in a way where people are getting more awareness of what's happening, what their activity is making a footprint for this planet, and what can they do, can they do basically leave a positive mark. And then what we can predict is that the technology will continue to develop and evolve, right? So, and the sustainability awareness of that will continue to get developed and evolve. So I feel what we can do is play our part into it, right? So, you know, our slogan for our company, we say change runs on renewables. So basically, we believe that we can really play a bigger role. It is playing its role, but we can definitely play a bigger role to bring the biofuel into the aviation industry and beyond, right? Anywhere when we talk about the hard-to-abate sectors or industries, this is where we can play our role. And then we welcome all the technologies and the options because this is a big problem. It's not like one particular technology or option would be able to tackle it, so it's a matter of collaboration. So that's, that's, I think those are the things we definitely can predict for the ones that we need to work together.

Rich Maslen:Angela?

Angela Avery:I'm gonna give you a lawyer answer. I think it's faster evolution is what we're seeing right now. I think what we're What we're seeing is that the expectations of guests are changing more rapidly. Our technology capabilities are changing more rapidly. How we're looking at the world is changing more rapidly, and I think that aviation is keeping up with that pace. And so I read an interesting fact getting prepared for today: in 2016, there were 500 flights using SAF, and in 2023, there were 500,000 flights using SAF. And in any In this sort of era of history, that's lightning fast, to be able to get to a scaled technology that's a new source of fuel for use on board an aircraft that's just plug and play. Nothing has to be changed to that aircraft to be able to use that kit. That's lightning fast in real terms. And so, from my perspective, I think it's evolution, but it's happening at a greater degree of speed than we've seen previously. And guess what? Guest expectations are going to continue to move that rapidly, and we're going to stay caught up.

Valérie Durand:Yeah, I think that's very well said. It's lightning fast, and what this industry does is it adapts quickly and it's nimble. We've proven that over time. We're going to continue to do that, and it's lightning fast to the point where the legislators are not even catching up in time, right? It's going faster than the law, and I'm a lawyer by trade, and when I started my practice, My first opinion ever was— we didn't talk about the reporting, but my first opinion as a lawyer was the impact of Sarbanes-Oxley, right? And now here I find myself dealing with ISSB and trying to deal that into our reporting mechanisms and so on, and it's going at a lightning speed compared to 20 years ago. So it's going very quickly, but we have to acknowledge that it's going to take time to do this well. It's going to take time to do this smartly, but we're going to get there. We're going to get there. We adapt, we evolve, and it's going to happen over time.

Rich Maslen:So we've got 2 key numbers now, and that's 26 and 0. 26 years till we hit net zero. Will we achieve it? So coming back down, Valérie, do you think that is a realistic target? Do you think we have things in place to be able to get there, or is it proving that maybe it's going to be a challenge?

Valérie Durand:Well, I think it's very important to have ambition and to have a vision, because that gives you that common goal that you're all striving for, and you look for measures to get there. And so we are comfortable with our ambition goal in the sense that it is ambitious, but we recognize that there are different measures to get there. I talked about that at the beginning. Efficiency of operations is one thing, SAF is another, clean fuels is another. Technology, and then carbon reductions and removals. We have to be realistic. We have to know that in the short term, medium term, we're going to have to rely on them, and even in the long term, because even with SAF, you're still generating emissions. So we're going to have to rely on a whole bunch of different bucket of measures over time to get to that ambitious, but we need the infrastructure to support.

Rich Maslen:Angela, anything different?

Angela Avery:I think we will. I think that we would not have said set a target as ambitious as that one in 2021 too. Remember, this was actually during the height of the pandemic that we were setting these targets, and so we were still being ambitious, and we were still excited about our industry in 2021 to make that. I think it's absolutely possible, and I think we're going to learn from other sectors, and I think the point that was made earlier about learning from electrification that can actually be taken to aircraft that aren't electrified, I think we're going to learn from— right now we're seeing in Alberta, a real deep decarbonization taking place and green tech investments taking place for carbon capture and carbon sequestration. And those are the— right across the globe, these sorts of green tech investments are being made that are going to also help us decarbonize in our industry.

Rich Maslen:And we're very short on time, so just quickly, you two. Sorry, Carrie, will we hit the target?

Carrie Song:I think my answer is very short. It's take actions, right? That's the only way we're going to get there.

Rich Maslen:Suzanne?

Suzanne Bremski:I agree completely, and I think that technology and collaboration will play significant roles in helping us to all achieve these, these targets.

Valérie Durand:Yes.

Rich Maslen:Well, thank you very much, all of you. It's been a really good conversation. Thank you everyone in the audience for listening intently and being here to the end of the day. If you can just give a round of applause to my panelists, that would be great.

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