Environmental credentials and sustainability ever more important for travellers

Transcript

David Wills:Thank you, Marco, and good morning to everyone. As Marco said, my name's David Wills from Envest Global, and it's a real thrill to be here with this fabulous panel here today to talk about sustainability. And I think if you If you have formed a view about what's important in this industry over the last 4 weeks reading the media, you may have missed that probably, or arguably, the most significant transformative impact on this industry in the medium to long term is sustainability, not membership of the Chairman's Lounge. So it's great to have this group together today to talk about that. Quickly before I introduce, I just did want to I just wanted to pile on a bit to Marco's comment about the work that CAPA have been doing around the airline sustainability analyses and benchmarking, which is really great work they're doing. And it really helps cut through— and we'll talk a little bit later on, I think, about information and data and how transparency in what's going on in the industry. But the work CAPA are doing and the data they have is incredibly valuable if you're an airline to understand where you sit relative to others, if you're an airport looking at differential charging based on sustainability performance of airlines, if you're an investor or a lender or someone who has a business who's making commercial decisions where sustainability may affect the performance of that thing that you're investing in, then having an understanding of relativity of performance and risk and opportunity for airlines based around sustainability I'd highly recommend getting a look at that CAPA data, which the latest iteration's coming out in November, so watch this space. But anyway, to this excellent panel we've got here today in the next 43 minutes to talk about sustainability. So from the far end, Christian Bennett, who's the Chief Corporate Affairs and Sustainability Officer for Virgin Australia. Great to have you.

Kiri Hannifin:Thank you.

David Wills:Virgin represented in the panel today. Kiri Hannifin, Chief Sustainability Officer for Air New Zealand. Ailsa Brown, who's the Head of Air Partners Asia Pacific at Travelport. And Heidi Hauf, who is the Regional Sustainability Lead in APAC for Boeing. So welcome everybody. And maybe just to start, I'd like to actually hear from each of you a little bit, just some opening comments if you like, around sustainability in the industry in general and your perspective through the lens of the organisation. Maybe Heidi, you could launch into it for us.

Heidi Hauf:Absolutely, yeah, thank you. It's a pleasure to be here in such a big crowd and to have an opportunity, a dedicated opportunity to talk about sustainability with this fantastic group. I think from being here this morning, it's been great to hear about the industry We've heard a lot about the industry's contribution to the social and economic fabric of the world today. And I think to lay the foundation of where Boeing's coming from when we talk about sustainability, it's about how we expand that, including access. You know, when you think about how many people have access to regular flight, it's still very small in the world. And how do we give, give more of the goodness that we see through aviation, particularly here in Australia and New Zealand, to other parts of the world. But how do we decouple that from the environmental impacts? So as we grow, we need to really keep that front of mind. And as an OEM, I think that's really at the heart of how we approach sustainability. There's many ways that we can do this. And I think, I think it was someone on the panel earlier this morning that mentioned that it's going to take everything. There is no silver bullet. It's going to take all technologies as they mature and are applicable to different segments. At Boeing, we, we talk about the 4 key areas that we focus on, first being fleet renewal, and both airlines here today and of course the others here in Australia are really focusing on this. Fleet renewal can bring 15 to 25% emissions reductions. It's a really important part of what we can do right now on sustainability. Operational efficiency is enormous in the opportunities that we can tackle, whether that's through through the ground airport ecosystems or how we fly planes in the air. And again, can get some really significant emissions reductions right now. And where the real exciting opportunity and step change is in advanced technologies and renewable energy. And sustainable aviation fuel is absolutely critical. We've heard a little bit about that already from today, and I think we'll explore it a little bit more. There is certainly some challenges when it comes to growing a new industry and sustainability Sustainable aviation has, has its challenge in the fuel system. In Australia, liquid fuels contribute around 45% of our energy mix, and yet we don't really include liquid renewable fuels as part of the wider energy transition as coherently as I think we should. We heard from Andrew Barr earlier about how dependent we are on growing a SAF industry alongside even accessing green electrons for other energy carriers, such as electrification and green hydrogen. in the transition of other industries and prioritising that. So I think that's a really important thing to think about with SAF. I think I will leave it there. Probably just finish off on saying that Australia— Boeing and the CSIRO, Australia's scientific organisation, just released a SAF roadmap. The roadmap looks at feedstocks, particularly in Australia, but also across the Asia Pacific, how these might be liberated towards 2030 and up to 2050 to grow an industry here. but also the flow of feedstocks and fuel that currently exists and how that might grow. We have a real opportunity to grow an industry here, and we might get a chance to explore what some of the barriers or enablers are for that industry.

David Wills:Thanks, Heidi. Ailsa, would you like to add to that?

Ailsa Brown:Yes, thank you, and thanks for having me on the panel. So there's so many aspects of sustainability, and one of the areas that Travelport are looking into or have actually invested in is It's about the communication and the standardization of the CO2 emissions. So how does the traveler actually know what emissions are associated to their flights? It's really difficult when they go to different channels, different points of sale, and cannot get a standardized view of what the emissions look like. There's lots of good reports out there, and about 80% of travelers are very mindful about sustainability, but there's about 45 to 50% that don't know how. to get that information, to make that informed choice, to, you know, make the difference to the environment. So our view is to certainly try to educate, and we've implemented some things that I'll share later that we've done to support the travellers and the travel industry, be it leisure, corporate, OT, etc.

Kiri Hannifin:Thank you. Kia ora. Christian and I have both come from the same industry. I think we started in aviation within a week or so of each other, and I think it's harder than what we've ever done, hey?

David Wills:Yeah, I think so.

Kiri Hannifin:Just to build on, I think for aviation, abating carbon is an incredibly difficult challenge, and I think going forward, as other parts of the economy decarbonise quicker than we can and our emissions go up in comparison, I think it'll become even more a question of social licence. And so for us in New Zealand, where we've had 2 quite significant climate climate change-related events this year. We're very cognisant of being the national carrier and having a really key place in the heart of our communities, our role in decarbonising our own business to support trade and tourism go forward. So it's incredibly difficult. It's great that there's some great minds working on it, but it's not going to be an easy solve, or it's not an easy solve.

Christian Bennett:No. Well, thank you, David. And well, we have less than 27 years to accomplish the Herculean task of net zero.

Ailsa Brown:emissions.

Christian Bennett:It might seem like a long time, but as everyone in this room I think recognises, for the aviation industry it indeed is an exceptionally— it is a real challenge. So I think for us that means that we need to start pulling every lever we can as quickly as possible. I think for many airlines that starts with fleet renewal. For Virgin that includes a new suite of, well, 33 MAX aircraft over the next coming years, the Boeing MAXs. Not only do we get the 15% greater fuel efficiency, but also importantly, we get about a 40% improvement in noise envelope, you know, broadening out that sort of sustainability concept. And as, you know, Heidi touched on, I mean, SAF is clearly going to be— I call it the slingshot. You know, we can drive with fleet renewal out to 2030, but ultimately sustainable aviation fuel is going to be the slingshot from us towards the ambition of net zero emissions by 2050. That is problematic. We can't buy a drop of that in this country at present. We all know the price differential, 2, 3 times depending on which pathway you want to reflect on. So I think for us, a really important ambition is the role of partnerships within the sector, across the aviation and tourism sectors as to how we're going to bring this challenge to ground and hopefully accomplish what we've set for ourselves. We've started thinking about, for example, what do those partnerships look like in, for example, Australia and the United States? How can we— Australia's doing a great job right now of helping to decarbonise US aviation through— via the export of tallow.

Kiri Hannifin:Mm-hmm.

Christian Bennett:But how can we tap into the environmental benefits that that's accomplishing in the United States? How do we look at creative solutions like book and claim? And how do you use that as a bridge as and until we can find the time and the important role of policy in closing the economic gap, the economic challenge that sits between today and the reality of what will be required with respect to sustainable aviation fuel into the future. So those partnerships are going to be absolutely crucial— partnerships with our customers, partnerships with our suppliers, partnerships with the industry, our competitors. It's going to be critical for our collective ambition.

David Wills:Christian, you mentioned there about the role of policy. I mean, you've got A US-based approach that's more incentive, you've got an EU approach that's more target-based. Asia-Pacific is probably a little bit behind in terms of Australia, New Zealand, and Asia-Pacific more generally is probably behind. What do— from a policy point of view, what's the path that you think we need to take to catch up, accelerate, get to—

Kiri Hannifin:Yeah.

David Wills:Net zero in 2050?

Christian Bennett:Well, I would say that we need to take an Australian path. We need to— one of the benefits of at least being, shall we say, a fast follower is we get a chance to observe what's going on in other parts of the world. What, you know, how do incentives work? What, you know, the role of mandates, what are the unintended consequences attached to that? And I think, you know, and to the government's credit, they've established a Jet Zero Council where a number of us, Heidi and myself, are on that council along with about 14 others across the industry to try and sort out, well, what is the best and most appropriate policy response for Australia and Australia's circumstances given our various endowments, including as the work that Boeing and CSIRO have done, the very significant feedstocks that we have, and how do we take advantage of the natural dynamics and how do we overlay that a responsible fiscal environment that can bring the solution and start to build the capacity, attract the investment. But that's where, you know, we would also look at, you know, how do you leverage Australia's— President Biden and Prime Minister Albanese signed a clean energy compact in Japan a few months ago now. There was an MOU signed with California on clean energy only a couple of weeks ago between Australia and the United States. What role could SAF play inside those frameworks whereby 2 countries can, you know, really start to lead the way and do things sometimes that I think other countries mightn't be able to do as quickly, either on a regional basis or on a— let alone on a global basis. So this is the key issue, David. What will be the policy framework that will help close the delta between, let's say, the dollar a litre we pay today, a bit more for fuel, compared to the 3 or 4 bucks that a litre of neat SAF might cost?

Kiri Hannifin:Yeah.

Christian Bennett:And when that's in the order of 30% of your cost base.

David Wills:I'll come back to that cost issue in a minute, but Kiri, what about from a New Zealand perspective?

Kiri Hannifin:Air New Zealand has a science-based target to 2030, and a lot of that means that we need a lot of SAF. And so for us, you know, we can't— we need a lot of stakeholders and partners to deliver on our science-based target. So as to Christian's point, I think it actually probably is a multi-pronged approach. So we're doing our domestic advocacy in New Zealand around help getting our government to create enabling policy for SAF in New Zealand, but also I think there's probably multiple bilateral engagements we need to make. I would say trans-Tasman as well, but certainly across the ditch for us, but also into Singapore and Japan and around the room, because actually we need everybody to help. So I think the EU have done very well. It's been, you know, they've got a— they're really lucky actually in terms of how they've developed this stick approach. It's not so easy for us, but I think actually we can probably only solve SAF in the Asia Pacific together, and we can do a lot within our own jurisdictions, but probably we'll do better if we work collectively through the region.

David Wills:Yeah, okay. The cost issue, I mean, if you look at an average airline, we'll say 30% of their cost is fuel, and SAF being 3 to times more expensive. Any substantial increase in SAF— I mean, if it replaced— an airline replaced its entire fuel with SAF, its operating costs would go up 60-plus percent just to maintain current margin. So who's going to pay for the cost of decarbonisation? And is a 60% cost impost a realistic View on that? I mean, Heidi, I don't know whether you've got a thought on that.

Heidi Hauf:I mean, I think there are multiple ways that we can attack the cost, the premium, the green premium as we call it today. I think, to be completely honest, not necessarily bring it down to Jet A parity, but that's the hope. One of the things is policy, you know, setting up a portfolio of complementary policies that help to incentivize both the market to scale, but also introduce things like carbon intensity payments across the board, would help to better balance both the environmental impacts of the fuels that we use, but also make SAF a more viable fuel. There's also things like, you know, as we are all starting to look at Scope 3 emissions reductions, there's a role for including corporations to contribute towards the green premium to cover their Scope 3 costs, to help airlines particularly with the cost of SAF. And I think, I mean, it'd be great to hear from the airlines who are faced kind of at the coalface from this. But I think one of the things in the conversation around costs that we need to consider is that the cost of inaction and the costs that we're not currently considering when we're talking about the cost of SAF.

Kiri Hannifin:Mm-hmm.

Heidi Hauf:We have carbon border adjustment mechanisms being considered and a review going on here in Australia. We don't talk about jet fuel with a carbon addition. We only talk about the cost of the jet fuel. That is going to be a reality in some parts of the world. So I think that we have to recognise that SAF is more expensive, but there are ways to bring down that cost and that we also need to think about more— a bit more sophisticatedly about the comparison to Jet A.

David Wills:Yeah.

Christian Bennett:Anyone else want to comment on David, I think, well, we're not going to be making a transition to 100% SAF overnight. This is going to be a phased approach over time as we start blending SAF into our fuel stream as and when it becomes available. For an airline such as Virgin Australia, we don't fly to any ports where SAF is available.

David Wills:So—

Christian Bennett:The cost multiplier is obviously a function of which pathway you might follow, and I think that's why the Jet Zero Council, for example, needs to examine what are the best, most cost-efficient options for Australia, and what would be the role of government policy in helping to enable that and to enable the investment. Is Australia going to have an Inflation Reduction Act type arrangement such as in the United States? It's extremely expensive. I think the US's balance sheet is a bit bigger— It's a lot bigger. to absorb those type of mega investment attraction strategies. But this is going to need to be a balance. It'll work in tandem with— we're already now subject to the safeguard mechanism, so we need to reduce our emissions by 4.9% per annum in any event in order to be able to avoid any— the need to go and buy offsets to acquit our obligation under the safeguard. So there are already natural drivers being built into the policy environment, and then it's just a case of, I think, what comes next. The technology is not a problem. The pathways are pretty well identified. Some obviously cost far more than others, but again, over time that will— that should improve. But, you know, we need to find a pathway where we can start blending 5%, 10%, etc., as we work our way up towards 2050. So there's time, but there's no time to waste.

David Wills:Yeah. Do any of you foresee sort of social impacts arising from decarbonisation that potentially takes flying out of the reasonable reach of people who currently can fly, visit the family once a year, whenever it might be, if airfares go up? Is there a social dimension to this that is being considered at the moment?

Kiri Hannifin:I think it's a good question. I think, I mean, there's a social dimension to climate change, right? And there's a just transition needed for everybody, you know, outside of aviation. But generally, as we transition towards, you know, a low-carbon economy, we need to do that in a way that's just, including in our sector for people who fly. I think For Air New Zealand, we're very mindful of the fact that for us, we will need, for example, with hydrogen planes, we will need a lot of New Zealand's energy. And so we want to do that in a way that's equitable, that's fair, that's just, because actually, why us? Why us as opposed to the coal burners in our economy? So I think considering the social impact will become increasingly important as the cost of SAF will have to somehow be embedded into the cost of tickets.

David Wills:Yeah.

Kiri Hannifin:In some form or another. But I think, you know, the way that we do that— and I think the other point to make is that there is enough money in the world for us to transition into a low-carbon globe. The money just needs to be directed in the right place. We're talking 3 or 4% of world GDP to do this. So I think there is some sort of systemic issues that are beyond aviation alone, but for us to potentially lobby towards to help start solving these problems around a just Transition for all.

David Wills:Okay.

Heidi Hauf:I think also there's, um, the social benefit from, um, the industries that support a transition for aviation. Um, if you think about sustainable aviation fuel, it's largely going to be, um, in Australia at least, a regional, um, development. It's going to be likely to be in industrial symbiotic relationships, just such as green hydrogen as well, where you have industries in transition. So there's jobs and skills transfer, there's new jobs where other jobs are falling off. So I think that there's opportunities— that's just one example— opportunities in the growth of the support mechanisms, the ecosystem that will help support aviation transition.

David Wills:Yeah, okay. Just changing tack slightly, maybe Ailsa, to bring you into it. You talked a bit about, I guess, the customer and access to information on this, and one of the, I guess, key areas to look at is access to clear and meaningful information so customers and probably other stakeholders can make informed decisions about, you know, ticket purchase, airline selection, etc. What perspective do you have on that?

Ailsa Brown:So there's so many good 2023 sustainability reports, GBTA, Booking.com, etc., and one of the key things that has fallen out of those reports that is something that Travelport's doing something about is the lack of standardization. So where does the standardization come from the CO2 emissions? We need to get this formalized and harmonized sort of approach so that the consumer, regardless of whichever channel they book, have an understanding of what the choice they're making means to the sustainability goals that either the corporation have or the greater good of the community. So Travelport have joined the coalition of Travelist, which is a UK non-for-profit organization based in the UK, and the other coalition partners like Google, like Skyscanner, Expedia, IATA, GVTA, etc. Their mission is to look at standardization, harmonization of that information. So that's an ongoing, obviously, engagement with the Travelist organization. There's 5 different elements that they gauge today. And what Travelport have done and have made available to all of the consumers regardless of where they book. So on the travel agent's desktop, you get the emissions calculation coming up and appearing so that again the travel agent can guide the travelers should they wish to be more mindful of what they choose. And also through the corporate booking tools, through the online travel agencies, through the metas, etc. So we've rolled that out last month. So that everybody can have the opportunity to make a more informed decision. Because then, as I say, in one of the reports there's lots of information that says people are super mindful about being more sustainable, but they don't know how, they don't know where the options are, and what mechanisms do they do to save some emissions, you know, whether it's older aircraft or destinations or whether it's a direct flight. I think that's a really good point. flight or something that's got a stopover. So again, what we're trying to do for the industry is to help the consumer understand at every point of their journey how can they make the best decision and the most informed decision to either, as I say, help the corporate strategy. There was a really good panel with Karen Hutchinson from Ernst Young who spoke Yeah. So Virgin Australia spoke a lot about their transition plan, and it's going from strategy to action, and it's talking about some of the policy changes that they've made in their organization that looks at things like— they look at the volume of people that do one-day travel. So again, making that trip more meaningful, so go and see 2 or 3 customers if it's a corporate engagement, or looking at different ways that they can serve their traveler linking to their policy and also the sustainability angle. So different ways is— sorry, the different ways that we had was— one second, I've got the little notes here. Oh yeah, that's right. So the different ways of looking at it is not just sadly on the flights, but certain parts of the world is looking at different alternatives, so rail or car hire or something. And when you're looking at rail, it might be a 3-hour journey as opposed to a 1-hour flight, but when you're looking at that end-to-end, door-to-door experience, it's actually more beneficial for the traveller, the corporate traveller, jump on the train and work end-to-end for 4 hours. So there's different ways that they can measure that, and they've put a really nice gauging to look at, you know, the monitor between black and green so that visually people can make that informed choice. So that's what we're doing at Travelport to try and educate the consumers to make that decision, you know, not just with cost but with contribution.

David Wills:Yeah, Kiri, can I ask you from an airline point of view, you— I mean, there's been quite a number of examples recently where airlines like Lufthansa, Air France have been either sued or regulated against for making green claims. There's sort of a— if you go to any airline website, there's generally lots of flash stuff about what they're doing and promoting their sustainable policies and performance, et cetera. But there's clearly an issue here with perceived greenwashing. I mean, from an Air New Zealand point of view, What's the balance between transparency of information, so you really are opening yourself up to scrutiny, being honest about what's happening in the industry, but at the same time being proactive, being positive about the commitments you've made and the direction you're heading?

Kiri Hannifin:I feel very sorry for KLM, who I think have borne the brunt of most of the criticism in Europe, and I speak with them quite a lot, and they have such good intent, and I think last year were the largest purchasers of SAF, but nonetheless are the subject of multiple law cases in Europe. I think I'm very, very proud actually of Greg's leadership in this regard because we now talk about the fact that we have this most amazing privilege of connecting New Zealanders with each other in the world, but when we do so, we contribute to the climate crisis. So we talk very transparently around that cognitive dissonance of like being such an You know, amazing part of our community, but, you know, polluting at the same time. So at least there's honesty. I think that's really important. Like, we are— it is what it is, and we're so determined to do better. We've just completely redone our— the way that we talk to customers, all of them corporate cargo and retail, around emissions profiling. We've included non-CO2 in terms of, you know, we've really tried to make it as transparent We're transparent. We've stopped the use of the word offsetting. We know you can't offset your flights, but you can make a contribution that's positive. So it's kind of being much more honest about what we do and what we can do to mitigate or to make— at least to make a positive contribution to projects in the world or in our own country. So I think that's a good start, to be very clear that you can't fly neutrally. That's, you know, to use the correct language, to make claims that we'll be around to deliver on. So the science-based target that Air New Zealand have made, maybe if I, you know, play my cards right, I'll still have a job in 2030 to see it through. But 2050, I can't really make claims if I'm not going to be around the table. It's too easy, right, to say want something and not be there to land it. So I think there's some things we can do just to have integrity and to be decent and honest and to tell the truth. But, you know, certainly not to pretend we're anything other than we are.

David Wills:And Christian, I mean, part of that is also to achieve net zero as an industry, there's partnerships and collaboration that you spoke about before, and it's essential. And yet there's sort of a competitive tension, if you like, to be the most green airline. I mean, how do you balance The teamwork and the leadership.

Christian Bennett:Yes, well, I think for Virgin Australia in this space, you know, we need to be quite humble about what we can realistically accomplish on our own. We— there are things that are in our control, and there are many things that we know we're going to have to work with our partners with. You know, we recently signed an MOU with Boeing on sustainability because we knew that ability to tap into the knowledge of such a global player in the aviation sector and leader would be immensely valuable, and to do that here in the domestic Australian market. So, and there are a number of areas, and that extends not just, by the way, from emissions, but it extends to human capital development. Our respective CEOs are mentoring female leaders in our respective companies, but, you know, Indigenous procurement, a range of tasks. But it'll be those sort of partnerships that do help accelerate around the Jet Zero Council. And I was quite open. Look, Qantas has had a bit of a bad week, but I said to Andrew Parker, my counterpart at Qantas, I thought what they were doing and trying to lead in this space was great. That's the kind of leadership we need from a major carrier like that to help drive the SAF narrative. And look, we can't pretend with the depth of our pockets that we're going to be leading that ambition, but we are certainly going to be leaning in. We'll be very— You know, our own 2030 target of 22%, we set that very deliberately as something— carbon emissions intensity reduction off a 2019 base— we set that as what we thought of as a stretch for us, but something that we could and we should do. We couldn't factor in any SAF because we don't have access to SAF in Australia. So look, we'll be— I think we can manage these competitive tensions. It's important that we preserve—

David Wills:Yeah.

Christian Bennett:level playing fields as we go forward in certain areas such as on sustainable aviation fuel and particularly the policy environment. But I think as an industry we've committed to 2050 as an industry and as an industry we need to work together. There are plenty of spaces we can collaboratively work together and then there'll be these clutch of issues where yeah sure the competitive juices will be alive and well and as they should be.

David Wills:Yeah, on the question of 2050 there's a really good question here about It talks about flight shaming and sustainable choices becoming more prevalent. Do we have the luxury of time to win the public debate on sustainability? And is aviation going to be the next tobacco industry? And think about it in the context of 2050, which I'm not sure that I've processed yet what a long-term aspirational goal is versus a commitment. You know, 2050 feels close, as you say, 26, 27 years. But in the minds of people, in 10 years' time, I mean, 2050 seems like a long time out. And in 2030, not much may have changed. So is 2050, is that going to be good enough? I mean, are the public going to demand more? Will governments demand more for—

Kiri Hannifin:Yeah.

David Wills:Political points, whatever it is. I mean, is the industry heading for a bit of a crisis point when the pace of the game isn't fast enough and the implications of that?

Heidi Hauf:I mean, I think the start of that question's an interesting one about whether we have the luxury of time. I think not just for our industry but across the board, we don't. Science is very clear on that. So I think just we With that lens, the interim goals that we take, whether it's as industry-specific goals or those that are national or global, are really important. And the rate of change— just again, go back to sustainable aviation fuel— the rate of growth that's needed from 2030 to 2050 keeps increasing each week as we don't produce sustainable aviation fuel. Mm-hmm. For me, it's really clear we do not have the luxury of time. We absolutely need the social license and to bring people's understanding and support and input along as we, as we build a more sustainable industry. They're really challenging things that we have to face, but I was really inspired by how Greg talked about, you know, the challenges of this industry. It draws the most talented people, and it's really fun when you work in these talented teams to try and tackle these incredibly important issues.

David Wills:Yeah.

Christian Bennett:It might be worth reminding, you know, since the evolution of the jet age, the aviation industry has done a remarkable job of reducing its emissions profile over time. It just hasn't been the subject of profound focus because it wasn't the issue of the day. But that has been the story of the industry. And hence, you know, the latest generation of Boeing and Airbus aircraft delivering significant reductions, but not enough. We need to keep pushing the envelope. We know that the global aviation sector accounts for less than 3% of global carbon emissions today. We know that proportion is only going to increase, so I think that goes to your point, David, about the focus on the industry will continue. I'm confident we deliver a far better product than tobacco ever did, and connectivity is a critical issue. Affordable connectivity is a critical issue for Australians in a large landmass with a small population. and an innate natural desire to move and travel and see the world. So this is just going to be another challenge for the aviation industry. It's another very large crack— nut to crack, but one that even— I was just looking at the— to your point before about disclosure, the visibility for customers. Yes, I think that demand for transparency and awareness will only increase. And I was on the United app today looking at Melbourne to San Francisco, and Sure enough, there it is, 637 kilograms of CO2 equivalent per economy seat. There are these investments that airlines are making, I think, to try and raise the awareness, give people more visibility of what their footprint is. We know professional service firms where their Scope 1 emissions can be in the order of 75% to 80% attributable to business travel. So they're empowering their staff to get more visibility.

Heidi Hauf:Yeah.

Christian Bennett:These tools are increasing and it just means that the industry can't waste another second. I don't think it is wasting any time, it just needs to move as quickly as possible. We need to work hand in hand with government in this country to provide the framework that gives us access to that slingshot that is SAF from 2030 on.

David Wills:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, one of the other questions that was on the sort of in the agenda was around the role of Business and how it can support the transition. I don't know, Ailsa, whether you had any thoughts around—

Ailsa Brown:Yeah, similar to, um, so making people more aware of what they're doing. Again, their corporate policies are changing quite considerably, um, to make sure that they're being more mindful about the choices that they're making. Um, but it's something that, you know, there's, there's this, you know, analysis— is it, is it cost-conscious, risk- sustainability, how does that all play together? And cost can, you know, be one aspect, but also if you're looking at your travel policy correctly or you're being more mindful about how you travel, maybe you're reducing your travel but you're also supporting your sustainability goals. So again, there's— to me, it's everybody has to play their part, and to me it's about education about what does that mean, what does the What your emission numbers mean when you look at a flight, and is there a better option at that day or that time or in the location that you are, whether you're in Europe. Trains are a lot more accessible, obviously. But I think to me it's very much about transparency of the information, standardization of the information, and doing that sort of harmonization to make it trusted information that the consumer will actually, you know, Yeah. look towards and sort of use it in conjunction with the policy of the corporate. And definitely from the leisure point of view, you know, there's a lot of, you know, the younger generation that are very mindful about the sustainability, but there's a lot of them, 45, 50%, don't know how to get this information to make that informed decision. So to me, it's about education, standardization, harmonizing the information, and making it accessible.

David Wills:I mean, Looking at corporate travel, I mean, over the last 5 years or so, a lot of companies have come out and committed to net zero. I mean, airlines say 2050. A lot of companies are 2030, 2035. And a lot of the big travel companies that have travel profiles have got explicit travel reduction. And we saw some data from Simon earlier today about 70%, 75% of 2019.

Christian Bennett:Yeah.

David Wills:But in reality, how much— I mean, maybe this is for Kiri and Christian— how much are you seeing sustainability driving choices in flights versus keeping the P&L robust and various other drivers? How much is it becoming a driver for corporates?

Christian Bennett:David, I think, yeah. There's no doubt that we are having more conversations with our corporate customers about our efforts on sustainability and particularly our emissions profile because it obviously goes to their Scope 3 emissions. So that is a dialogue that is definitely evolving and they're wanting to know how we can work with them. So we're sitting down, we're having— we had a very lengthy discussion with a large miner the other day about their profile and how we could work together on that. We were blending that into wider conversations. policy conversations about what could the development of SAF mean for the development of biofuels and biodiesel and so forth. So unquestionably, that dialogue is increasing. I mean, sustainability as an actually purchasing factor, I think with the broader public at the moment, it's still— I would say you've still got value for money, you've got price, and any number of other attributes. I wouldn't say it's in the top 10 at the moment for the broader travelling public. That's what the data is just sort of telling us, but that— my personal view, and as good as anyone in this room's, is that that will change, and that's why we just— I think it's good that corporates in a way are leading those discussions and pushing that charge, because it's helping us to frame what our solution set might look forward as we look out through the rest of this decade and how we can help them them as well as helping ourselves in the context of our own safeguards obligations.

David Wills:I think if—

Ailsa Brown:sorry, go ahead.

Heidi Hauf:Um, I was just going to say another, I guess, important stakeholder is this in investors, which is driving a lot of this change, um, and the, the risks that we are increasingly exposed to across the industry due to climate change. I think that's a really interesting driver, um, particularly around some of the reporting and the metrics that's being asked by investors. investors to help understand and track risk by the companies they're invested in. And I think some of the legislation that we're seeing around the world, but it's on the cards here in Australia, the SEC in the US, but also in Europe and the UK around climate-related financial disclosures, will only drive more transparent and standardized data, which will be useful for consumers as well as investors. So I think that's Really important. And on the role of business, I just wanted to add, you know, I think business— we've talked about the Scope 3 opportunities and being able to provide that standardized data and choices, particularly in corporate travel. But large organizations also have an education role of their employees. And I think in the B2C companies in the room, there's a huge opportunity to provide information to the customers that you have alongside any services that you provide. And some airlines are doing a fantastic job on that front. And, you know, Christian mentioned being able to jump onto the United site and see the carbon. I was flying with Finnair recently, and they have a partnership with Sky Energy around being able to book a SAF portion of your flight, and it has a whole bunch of information about what SAF is, what the challenges are, what it isn't. So those kind of things, I think, aren't just the responsibility of the airlines.

Ailsa Brown:They're actually the responsibility I was just going to add that there was 2 things that fell out of the GBTA report in terms of putting the corporate policies into place. One was procurement, one was communication. So procurement, you know, 76% of travel buyers are putting— they're planning to put the suppliers under you know, more rigour when they go for RFPs, so they're going to include it in their RFP, they're going to include it in the contracts. So again, another point being the communication. Again, you have to be able to communicate, to your point, to your team, and what does that mean in terms of the policy and the choices that you make every day to adhere to it.

David Wills:We're heading towards the end of the session, so I thought to close I might ask each of you If you have any takeaways you would like, or key messages that you would like to implant as takeaways for people in the room. Christian, put you on the spot first.

Christian Bennett:Well, my key message would be, I think, just the role of partnerships. And that is going to be absolutely critical. And we're very keen to work with our broader ecosystem as to how we can best serve mutual needs so that we can identify the relevant solutions at a customer level right through to a macro policy level as quickly as possible. And the quality of those partnerships, I think, and the speed with which they are pursued will be critical drivers in how we position ourselves towards 2050.

David Wills:Yeah, OK. Kiri?

Kiri Hannifin:I'd say that the science does tell us that we need to go a lot quicker than we are in terms of reducing emissions. It's very clear. So for us in aviation, where it's not easy, we need to ask ourselves, are we worth the carbon? Every day, are we worth the carbon? And if that's not a driver of how to behave as a business and how to show up every day and how to interact with your communities and your stakeholders and your suppliers and the government, then nothing is. So I think it's a great moral compass. Are you worth the carbon?

Ailsa Brown:I agree. I think it's— I think everyone has to play their part regardless of which sector or which industry or which organization you're in. And I think it's all about, as I say, the standardization of the data, the communication, the education of that data. But it's got to be reliable, consistent, and it's something that's from a trusted source. So again, you know, taking it down to everybody's involvement in this process, everybody has to be informed.

David Wills:Okay, thank you.

Ailsa Brown:Thank you.

Christian Bennett:Heidi?

Heidi Hauf:And I think I'd finish on innovation, but perhaps in a different way to what you think an OEM would talk about innovation. Technical innovation is absolutely critical, and I think, you know, Christian mentioned earlier just how good we are at it as an industry. But innovation doesn't have to be inventing new technologies. It can be how we work together, how we apply policies, how we work across different industries, take something from another industry and apply it in ours. And I think we have a lot of the solutions we might need if we think a little bit more laterally and innovatively in how we partner, as Christian said, to solve some of these challenges.

David Wills:All right, thank you. And thank you everyone for— the panel for their contributions. And hopefully there was some insight that was shared that's valuable. So please join me in thanking the experts.

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