Emerging Opportunities in Air Cargo: Unlocking Latin America’s Potential

Transcript

Asael Jalocha:Hey everyone, welcome to the best panel of this conference. So for starters, maybe we can start with some introductions. Lorena, do you want to, do you want to start?

Lorena Marquez:Hi, I'm Lorena Marquez. I'm the sales director for MAS. Currently, MAS is a Mexican cargo airline. We have been in the industry for the past 30 years. We used to be part of Grupo LATAM, and in 2019 we split off and we're one of the first Mexican cargo airlines. I have been in MAS for the past 5 years and a half, and in my previous life I was in the passenger airline, so I can relate to you with the passenger and the cargo side.

Asael Jalocha:Lorena was recently recognised as one of the 21 most influential women in air— in the airspace. In Mexico. So there you go, you have a celebrity over here. Don Jaime.

Jaime Alvarez:Hola, I'm from Panama. I'm Jaime Alvarez, and I've been, I've been blessed for having to run the cargo business of Copa for the last 30 years, more or less. We are very happy to be here with you all. And hope you enjoy the, the moment.

Asael Jalocha:Thank you very much, Jaime. Jaime is actually a proficient Fortran 77 coder, and he speaks Bahasa Indonesia.

Joe Mazzali:Good afternoon. My name is Joe Mazzali. I'm the CEO of Amerijet International Airlines. I've been with Amerijet for about 3 and a half years, you know, previously 30 years with UPS. Amerijet is an all-cargo airline based in Miami. We operate 11 converted 767 freighters operating primarily in Central America, Caribbean, and the northern cone of South America. The average age of our fleet is about 32 years old, so, you know, not exactly a young fleet. And based on the recent Miami-Dade stats, we're the number 2 cargo carrier in terms of tonnage moved In Miami behind Atlas Air, ahead of the integrators. So we're very proud of that stat.

Asael Jalocha:And Joe is also the father of 3 21-year-old triplets. So not only does he have it tough on the business, but also at home.

Joe Mazzali:Yeah, I'm not sure what's tougher, is managing cargo or managing triplets.

Asael Jalocha:So since most of our audience is from the passenger side, maybe we can start with some of the more wacky stuff. in the air cargo business. So what is the weirdest thing you guys have had to ship in the cargo side? Lorena?

Lorena Marquez:For us, it was elephants, rhinos, dolphins, penguins. So name it, we have shipped it. It's not easy to put an elephant in a cargo airline, cargo aircraft. So one of the funny things, for you guys that are laughing, you have to have diapers for the elephant because imagine Imagine that. Well, everyone has to pee, and animals doesn't ask unless an elephant. They don't knock on the door like our dogs to say, hey, I want to pee. So you have to put a diaper. It was a 36-hour operation from Africa all the way to Mexico City because these animals were for the zoo in Mexico. So in every stop point that we were making, we need to change the diaper. So it was a complicated operation, but it was a successful one.

Asael Jalocha:Wow.

Lorena Marquez:The elephants are still alive. They're still in our zoo. So that's the most important part. So it's complicated. And also with the sea animals, you have to put seawater because you cannot run it in natural water. So also the corrosion of the salt can be a damage for the aircraft. So you also have to put a diaper on them so it doesn't affect the aircraft per se.

Asael Jalocha:And who has the amazing job of changing the diaper? Is that you, Lorena?

Lorena Marquez:No, it wasn't me. It wasn't me, thanks God.

Asael Jalocha:Tough luck for whoever that was. Jaime?

Jaime Alvarez:Well, it's been a long time since I've been doing this, and I've seen a lot of things. I'm going to tell you the story about the mice, lab mice, that when they opened up the belly on one of our flights, they were kind of running around. So we had to capture all of them. Not me, somebody else. And then for maintenance, they call us up and say, you know what, you guys need to make sure that we got all of them. You don't want mice running inside the airplane. And I said, okay. So we check on the amount of mice on the airway bill and check with the shipper, et cetera. And at the end, we told the guys, okay, go ahead and count Mice. And they weren't too happy about doing something like that, I suppose. We had to tell them twice to do it. The problem is that at the end, instead of, let's say, 200 mice, the count came out like 204. So we never knew exactly how many mice were there. And nothing bad happened. That was a long time ago.

Asael Jalocha:Did you invoice for the extra 4 mice?

Jaime Alvarez:Yeah, well, I didn't— they kind of want to say, how do we do this? You know, well, one by one.

Asael Jalocha:There you go. And was it a cargo only?

Jaime Alvarez:No, it was a belly.

Asael Jalocha:There you go. So you see, you guys could have been in that flight with some mice running around the belly. You never know. How about you, Joe?

Joe Mazzali:Yeah, so Amerijet has moved a wide variety of commodities, very similar to MAS. You know, we move horses, we move live animals, cows, pigs. We've moved live coral from Honduras. And then probably more recently, we've seen an uptick in exotic cars moving from Miami into Mexico as well. So over 50 years, you move a wide variety of various commodities. And as Lorena said, it's very challenging, especially with live animals.

Asael Jalocha:You mentioned a baby giraffe and a cheetah as well, I think?

Joe Mazzali:Yeah, so baby giraffe, cheetah, shark, pretty much a wide range of animal kingdom has probably moved on an Amerijet airplane at one point in time.

Asael Jalocha:And can you maybe clarify just for the peace of mind of the audience here that the baby giraffe and the cheetah were not on the same plane?

Joe Mazzali:No, no, not at all. Could have been interesting though.

Asael Jalocha:Okay, so maybe since with the 3 of you guys together, there's a long trajectory of experience in the air cargo industry, I'm sure there are some other very interesting cargo stories you guys are willing to share. Lorena?

Lorena Marquez:Well, who likes Oreos here?

Joe Mazzali:You?

Lorena Marquez:Imagine 46 tonnes of Oreos shipping from Mexico all the way to Colombia. That will be heaven for you. So we transport, like in pandemic, I don't know, but Colombians love Oreos. So we need to ship an aircraft full of Oreos all the way to Colombia because they were running out of Oreos. That's one of the interesting parts. But also we have shipped regular cargo. We have shipped vaccines during the pandemic. I think we, all of us did in some point. All of the airlines needed to support the pandemic So it's really interesting, like you and the passenger side, you never know what's on the belly. You think, oh, that's only my luggage and some ducks, but no, there's a lot of cargo coming and running from one place to another. So next time that you're sitting on the window seat, look on the side and maybe you will see some pallets, flowers, avocados, or some perishables or general cargo that are moving with you also.

Asael Jalocha:Thank you. Maybe some Oreos rolling around.

Lorena Marquez:Some Oreos rolling around. So it's really interesting. I think that Joe and Jaime have already seen a lot of stuff coming and going on the bellies. And Joe, for us on the cargo side, is more than interested in stuff. But I think that you never know what is underneath of that aircraft. So everything is shipped right away, your clothes, your glasses, Everything is all the way on those bellies.

Asael Jalocha:There you go. How about you, Don Jaime?

Jaime Alvarez:Well, in the 1990s, Panama wasn't quite like it is today. The canal was still in process of being reverted to Panama, and one of the things that happened in that time was that a lot of the ports that you see today were developed and they kind of— we grew as a very important hub for maritime operations here in Panama. But before that, the only way to get cargo to some of the Caribbean islands from Panama was on freighters. So we had a very healthy business of flying into Haiti and Jamaica. We used to fly— actually, we had a 737-200 that was a combi It will run with maybe 3 pallets in the front and the passengers on the back. Then we was converted fully to freighter, and we will fly a full load of passengers to the islands. They will come first to Panama and do the shopping of stuff in the duty-free zone of Colón. You ever heard of that duty-free zone? Is pretty big, still doing very well. And they would like buy tons of things in the duty-free zone, bring it in as luggage. There was no way that luggage was going to fit on the airplane. So at the end, we ended up flying a passenger flight and a freighter behind it with all the luggage, sometimes 2 freighters. And it was quite an interesting procedure dealing with The Jamaicans and the Haitians doing the weighting of the luggage. And it was— we actually did it on a separate area because it was a big event, a lot of people, a lot of things. And that disappeared. That completely disappeared when the ocean activity got healthier here in Panama. So you now have the same thing happening, but going—

Asael Jalocha:Yeah.

Jaime Alvarez:Ocean freight, not air freight. It is an example of ocean taking over the air just by increasing frequency on tripping in the region, which happens to us here in Panama.

Asael Jalocha:All I'm hearing is that Panama invented e-commerce before Temu or anything else. How about you, Joe?

Joe Mazzali:Yeah, Amerijet's been around for 50 years in this market, and that longevity is pretty incredible. Air cargo in Latin America is tough sledding, and so the countries that we serve are like extended families. So when a natural disaster comes across the radar, Amerijet responds, whether it's hurricane relief, earthquake relief here recently in Venezuela. Amerijet's very proud of our humanitarian efforts to serve the countries which are extended families. We mobilise very quickly. As an example, we operated 3 charters for the Salvadoran government from Salvador into Venezuela to support the earthquake relief. We've done similar things with hurricanes in Haiti, Jamaica, as well as San Juan.

Asael Jalocha:I imagine for all of these humanitarian efforts, there is a specific speed that is required. How do you manage that while still maintaining all the compliance and everything that you need to maintain in the air cargo industry?

Joe Mazzali:Yeah, you have to mobilise very quickly. We have some very good partners that we've associated with, Airlink and Food for the Poor and other NGOs, that they handle the logistics in-country. Then basically, we try to MacGyver the network to free up airplanes to serve these communities because it is a humanitarian effort, and we try to do our best balancing, you know, the commercial side as well as the humanitarian side. But, uh, we mobilise very quickly and have great partners, you know, in-country and throughout the world.

Asael Jalocha:So I'm hearing a lot of very region-specific things happening here in Latin America. How would you say air cargo is different in Latin America from other regions, Lorena?

Lorena Marquez:I think that, well, we all agree when we were chatting before this, that it's a really people-driven market. Right now, people are still calling the sellers, calling the teams. It's one-to-one meetings. It's completely different from other sides of the world. If you compare it to Europe or to other parts, let's say Africa or Middle East, It's not the same. The client wants to call the seller that has been there for the past 20 years, 30 years, and they want to have the quotation with them and the service with them and the follow-up with them. Even though if you try to go and advance and go into some AI technology that we're trying to get there, they always want to have the seller to see, hey, this is what is happening, what is coming with the freight forwarders, with the clients. Everything is still like a—

Jaime Alvarez:Yeah.

Lorena Marquez:person-driven relationship. That makes it a little bit complicated, but at the same time, it also helps you on the way to how you make your work or how you make your predictions for the coming years, because you know who is a personal landing, what is going to happen. Mainly, that's one of the things that happens here in Latin America that will be completely different, even though if you are trying to go in advance, In the AI, you are going to go slower than in other parts of the world because of this that is happening currently.

Asael Jalocha:Jaime, now you work in a passenger aircraft that's different from the cargo— sorry, passenger airline, different from both Lorena and Joe here. Would you say that's different for you, or is it also the same case?

Jaime Alvarez:You're talking about the passenger side?

Asael Jalocha:No, I'm talking about in Copa, being that it's Well, okay, yes, Copa is a passenger airline.

Jaime Alvarez:It's basically a big passenger airline with a small relative cargo business based on the size of the passenger side. Let's say that this creates the fact that we are the little guys in the big organization. Sometimes it We have to struggle to get all the resources that we might need. You are little compared to the other one, even though the business is not little anymore. Anything is big when it comes to having 130 airplanes and freighters and whatnot. That's one of the things that we deal with. on the passenger airline as a freighter operation. The other thing I would say when you mentioned the differences between America and elsewhere, I mean, I've been working my entire life in America, so I understand how we do things here, especially in Latin America.

Asael Jalocha:Yes.

Jaime Alvarez:But I've seen a lot of what goes on in Europe. We do business with them. Just like you mentioned, here is more personalised. Over there, you get a cargo and probably nobody from the company that sent the cargo or the freight forwarder that sent the cargo even touched it or looked at it. It gets to the airport and— Who knows? You find out maybe what's in there when you receive it. Sometimes we find out what's in there when we get it through our transit point. It's an interesting situation. Sometimes it's a delicate situation that we have to be aware. But in Latin America, we're doing things, I would say, very well. We have very healthy organisations flying cargo, very up to the levels that we don't have to ask anybody else for a lesson in how to do things. Nonetheless, it's a growing business. It's continued to grow. I would love to see more of the growth in intra-Latin America happening. That's what we're doing right now, and I've seen it, and it should be a very healthy market for the future to come.

Asael Jalocha:Joe, do you also agree with Lorena and Jaime?

Joe Mazzali:Yeah, I think the biggest difference between Latin America and some of the other trade lanes is that the Latin America trade flows are very balanced. So very balanced, you know, southbound where you're moving e-commerce or freight of all kinds, and then moving northbound, you're moving, you know, flowers out of Colombia, you know, fish out of the Caribbean, and okra out of Honduras. If you compare that to, let's say, the Trans-Pacific Trade Lane, that's basically one-way traffic. E-commerce coming from Asia eastbound, and then basically the aircraft are flying empty you know, over westbound back to Asia. So the Latin America trade is very, very balanced. And I agree 100% that Latin America is very relationship-driven, you know, from a, from a customer experience standpoint. So you put in online technology and customers still want to call Maricela and the sales director to do a booking because they've been doing that for the past 20 years. It's still a relationship-driven market.

Asael Jalocha:Would the 3 of you say that is maybe the toughest part of your job, managing the relationships, or is it something else entirely?

Joe Mazzali:I wish it was just one thing that was tough about running a cargo airline. I think right now, clearly, fuel volatility is a headwind, both from a working capital standpoint as well as profitability. We do try to pass on the fuel to customers with a very dynamic fuel surcharge where if fuel goes up, we raise prices. If fuel goes down, we decline prices. However, some of the competitors don't move that way, especially if they have a passenger airline arm that may not increase fuel as much. Also, as I stated earlier, our average fleet age is over 30 years old, so aircraft reliability is is something that keeps me up at night. So there's a— as I said earlier, it's tough sledding running a cargo airline.

Asael Jalocha:Lorena?

Lorena Marquez:I think that you think that the cargo doesn't speak or doesn't complain, but once you have been in the passenger and the cargo side, cargo complains more than the passengers. So it's weird because you say, oh, but it's a box. It will arrive. No, that box needs to arrive in 6 hours. I think that also that's a challenge for us because everything is important, everyone is important, and everything needs to be moved quick. That's also a challenge. As Joe mentioned, the fuel right now has been hitting us quite well in the airline industry. As much as Joe in Amerijet, we have a dynamic fuel surcharge. It has been completely It has been difficult to explain to the clients because they say, well, the war is far away. Why does it have to affect us? So to try to explain them, hey, if you go to the supermarket or if you go and fill your car, it's gonna be more expensive. You're not gonna pay the same amount that you used to pay a year ago. So that happens to us. Our cost increases, the fuel increases. So we need to increase the rate or we need to put you the fuel surcharge. in order for us to maintain our cost. So we have clients that they understand it. In our case, in the US and Mexico, they do understand it. But when you come here into Latin America, it's more difficult for them to understand them because it's perishables. It's more like a commodity that is more affected by the prices. So you need to arrive to a middle point where you have to Keep doing money because you need to fly, but also you need the clients for flying. So we need to make the balance in that sense because we don't have the passenger side in our end when you are 100% cargo airline. So you need to cover your costs by the cargo that you are making. So it's completely different from, from other competitors.

Asael Jalocha:Jaime, do you think it's different, or do you also—

Jaime Alvarez:Well, it is like that. I mean, if If you have a customer base that is volume, like flowers and fish, even e-commerce, they're going to fight for any increase on the rate. That's a fact. If you're in the pharmaceutical, they'll probably be more willing to go for it as long as the shipment moves quickly because it's value related to the value of The cost of the shipping is different. On the cargo side, you do have an advantage that the reservation is short time compared to passenger. On the passenger side, you already had sold 60% to 80% of your airplanes 3 to 2 months in advance. When you get hit with the fuel, you're not going to recuperate that.

Joe Mazzali:Thank you.

Jaime Alvarez:Until you pass some certain amount of time. And when the fuel goes down, everybody wants you to sell cheap immediately. So on the cargo side, it might happen as well. But again, it's a very short period of time between reservation and providing the service. So today we've been able to pretty much Charge, in our case, the fuel. It wasn't easy. Of course, there's some people that— some competitors that won't go for it because of whatever. At the end, we need to focus on doing it correctly, having to swallow the pill. If it is not a good one, then move forward. Like I said, if it is, it depends on the type of clients. It depends on a lot of things. But yeah, having the fuel expensive on the long run, it is not going to be good for anybody.

Asael Jalocha:You mentioned previously having to sort of struggle internally as a passenger airline to get resources into the cargo side. Would you say it's more of a struggle to you to have those sort of internal battles versus the external ones that Lorena and Joe mentioned?

Jaime Alvarez:Well, it's— if you are a big airline in the passenger side, let's say the IT service that I require for the business of cargo, It's not the same as the passenger side. It tends to be provided as a support. When it comes as a support, it's sort of like, yeah, we help you, but it's not like— you know the story of the chicken and the pig in the breakfast?

Asael Jalocha:Yes.

Jaime Alvarez:The chicken is involved And the pig is committed. It makes a difference. The other thing is we are sometimes a stone in the shoe of the passenger side running on-time schedule. If I show up with 5 carts full of cargo to the flight, they have to load it. I don't load. I don't touch the airplane. Somebody, they do it. So it's a lot of cargo, it's like a complaint, too much cargo. Okay? We managed to teach in Copa everybody that, hey, too much cargo is good, but it's not simple. And then if you— they kind of forget sometimes and you have to go back and tell them, hey, too much cargo is not bad, it's actually very good. Okay? It's an interesting duality and situation in which we have to deal with and live, and it's part of everyday life in our case.

Asael Jalocha:Now, maybe let's move to the hot topic at the moment, AI. How do you 3 see AI and technology maybe working for you in the airline business and in the cargo business specifically? Lorena?

Lorena Marquez:Well, we have created our own robot right now to answer quotations for the clients. So it's an internal system, and we're one of the first airlines that has done it. The robot, what it does, it reads the mail and it answers for you. So the sellers can be more in the street selling and having the contact with the clients instead of having the back office and answering. So for them to go to meeting with the clients in the morning or in the afternoon, it's easier for them to take that time and say, okay, I can do 3 meetings today or 4 meetings instead of doing 1 meeting and coming back to the office or doing the home office and answer the mails. Because now the robot reads it, then it sends a mail to the seller to say, hey, we have detected this, this is the rate, this is the chargeable weight.

Joe Mazzali:Yeah.

Lorena Marquez:And you can send it. So this is some diapers, but we're getting there. Like, we're testing it and it's working. So for us, we are not against having AI, and the sellers like it because they can be more in contact and then reduce the time of doing the back office and also to try to capture more. In cargo industry, the first that answers is the one that might get the business. That's one of the most important parts. It's not like in the passenger side that you go into the website, see what's the price, and then decide, okay, this one is cheaper, I want this, I want that. It's who's going to arrive, who answers first, and who takes the business. It's a little bit more like in that sense. This helps us go in that way. If we answer first, we can get the business before other ones.

Asael Jalocha:You did mention, though, previously Latin America being a very relationship-driven region. A lot of the customers still calling the phone. How does implementing this new robot affect that?

Lorena Marquez:What is going to happen, and that's a good question, is we are not going to stop the calls to our sellers. That's not going to stop. But if they already give a quotation faster, then they will have that call and they can make the negotiation easier. Instead of saying, hey, let me check, let me go to revenue management, Let me check the chargeable way. I have to go with the loadmaster. I have to check this. I have to check that. So you are moving one step forward, and instead of taking 1 hour, you're already in that advantage that you already have 1 hour saved. So instead of having a negotiation, let's say, sometimes can take 1 whole day or it can take 2 days, you can reduce it to half of the day. So that will help you and your client to take a decision faster. Sometimes I know that in the end, it's not the freight forwarder decision, it's the final client decision. But if they already have everything set up, it's going to be easier for them to run it.

Jaime Alvarez:Jaime? AI is— I call it a necessary evil. Whether we like it or not, it's coming. How is it going to help us in cargo business? There are many, many, many things that it will help us. help us with. You mentioning receiving a call with a robot. Actually, I tried one of those things and they can make it sound like one of the guys in the office. So you can think that you're talking to Maria. And it's not Maria, it's a freaking robot. And when Maria goes and says, okay, let me talk to my supervisor, that means that she's going to go call Maria or Maria's supervisor. All right? So it's interesting. It's going that way. For sure. Then there is pricing, there is capacity estimation, revenue management, and a whole lot of things that we will be able to do better with AI, yes, and machine learning and those weird things that I don't really understand. Bottom line still is that you need to have a good service. You need to have a good service, you need to have capacity, cost, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. The basic things. Things will never change, otherwise you're not going to exist, no matter how much AI you put on it. AI is going to help us reduce costs, increase productivity, do some things better. I would say like a capacity estimation, which is complicated. In our case, it is. But other than that, and to tell you the truth, we are just beginning. I mean beginning like maybe beginning next year. Right.

Joe Mazzali:Similar to Copa, Amerijet is leaning into AI. We see the biggest opportunity is actually on the tech ops side or the maintenance side. Right now, our tech ops is basically very reactive maintenance. A plane breaks, we fix. How can we leverage AI to be less reactive and more predictive? on, on TechOps, which will improve reliability, more data-driven analytics, and, you know, can we keep the— or, you know, our aging fleets in the air generating revenue versus being, being AOG? So yes, there's opportunities potentially on the pricing side, the customer service side, but we see the biggest value is coming on the TechOps side.

Asael Jalocha:Now maybe with the little time that we have, a bit of a lightning round. Where do you see cargo growing in the next 5 years? In what sector, maybe? Lorena?

Lorena Marquez:That's a tough question. Jaime, I can give the word to you while I think.

Jaime Alvarez:I think it's going to continue to grow. The famous question when you go to this event with Boeing is like, oh, 5%, 3%. I don't know. If I put another freighter, I'm going to grow 10%, but then somebody is going to lose that 10%. The business in Latin America is doing well. It's my concern with the fuel I mentioned is that if it continues to be high, it's not going to be good for anybody. Everything is going to be way too much more expensive. Things are going to have to adapt. I'm not going to be able to go fishing on my 2-motor boat. I'm going to have to go fishing on my little tiny 1-motor boat. Things are going to change whether we like it or not. That's the only constant in life and in this business. But I don't see a bad business. I see a business happening, still happening. Hopefully, we'll see Venezuela do better. Guyanas is coming up with interesting things. The tourism in some of the islands is going to continue to happen. I don't know what's going to happen with Cuba. Cuba is a mess. South America, we will be seeing salmon coming out of Chile and flowers out of Quito.

Joe Mazzali:Yes.

Jaime Alvarez:Brazil is doing very healthy right now. We wish to see Argentina do a little bit better. Maybe they will, hopefully, etc., etc. I don't foresee a black future. I think we're doing okay, and I hope to see some growth as we have so far.

Asael Jalocha:Joe?

Joe Mazzali:Yeah, I think cargo is going to continue to evolve. I think over the next 5 years, you know, hopefully we should see the OEMs delivering the backlog of passenger aircraft, which should free up feedstock for freighter conversion. At the same point, within 5 years, you should see, you know, the introduction of the A350 and the 777 freighter coming to market, which should free up more capacity. I think the other thing that we're seeing, that I've seen in air cargo, is really customers' expectations changing, where that it used to be day definite, and air cargo is basically like the redheaded stepchild. It'll get there when it gets there. But now it's more day definite, and people are expecting air cargo to act like an integrator. They tender volume to us, you know, at 8 PM on a Tuesday, and they want it delivered first thing in the morning on Wednesday. That's integrator service at air cargo rates. That's probably the biggest, and I think it's the Amazon effect. Everybody wants things faster and cheaper, and you're starting to see that in air cargo, certainly.

Lorena Marquez:Just to complement, I think that we also will need to think outside the box. We are Latin American airlines, and we're really in our region knowing what's happening. But if you ask us these questions 5 years ago before pandemic, we didn't know China was coming and the e-commerce was coming, but we didn't know how fast it was going to arrive. Right now, we have to see India, we have to see Vietnam, we have to see other parts of the world that will arrive into that point, and that China might go to be the second site. Right now, a lot of that cargo is coming via China all the way to Latin America. But that doesn't mean that in one point it will come directly. If there's a freighter that could arrive all the way from India or Delhi into, let's say, Miami, or— well, to Miami there is, but making stopovers. But all the way directly, that will also have a cost and that will also have an impact. And what you mentioned is important. Right now, the clients want a faster service with a cheaper rate. Faster, it doesn't mean cheaper. What we need to do is to educate, reeducate a client that faster is expensive, or you have to pay more for that service. Once we get into that balance, I think we're going to have a different kind of air cargo service. Right now, we have to manipulate and we have to evolve and we have to adapt what is happening right now. But also, it's like the fuel surcharge that Joe and I mentioned before. They didn't know about it and they have to adapt to it. So we need to continue adapting into all of what is happening around the world in order to survive.

Asael Jalocha:Well, we've run out of time, unfortunately, but that was a great conversation. Thank you very much to the 3 of you. I hope some of the passenger side audience over here got to learn some more about the wackiness of the cargo side. So thank you very much.

Joe Mazzali:Thank you.

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