Decarbonising the Aviation Industry: Challenges and opportunities for the region

Transcript

Miriam Wijemanne:Welcome back. I hope you had a nice evening yesterday. I'm Dr. Mirjam Wiedemann. I'm a consultant for airport infrastructure and strategy. I will introduce my fantastic panel in a second, but we thought we are making sure that you're all awake. And you need now to take out your mobile phone and go to Slido because we have a question for you as audience to start with. The question is, what comes to your mind when you hear sustainable aviation? You can use maximum a 2-word phrase. We get question up on the Slido. Next slide, please. Okay, the results are coming in. Slow progress. Aircraft fuel, electric, expensive investment, circular economy necessary, slow and costly. Hydrogen fuel efficiencies, a dream, aspirational risk. Carbon neutral, SAF, very important fuel usage ecosystem, carbon efficiency years away. Okay, interesting. Thank you. All right, let me introduce you to my panel. We have down there Margy Osmond, CEO of Tourism and Transport Forum. We have Fiona Messent from Qantas, Chief Sustainability Officer. Next to her, another Fiona, Fiona Walmsley from Virgin Australia, General Manager Sustainability. And next to me, Kiri Hannifin, Chief Sustainability and Corporate Affairs Manager with Air New Zealand. So let me start with a simple question, and we have seen the audience has a lot of different ideas of what's going on in decarbonisation of aviation. Why do we need to decarbonise air travel? And maybe thinking, What's the wider ecosystem? Margy, do you want to start?

Margy Osmond:Well, oh golly, that's loud. You know, just talking about it first up from a tourism point of view, I think there is, even though, you know, we're still struggling to get people to tick the box when we say, would you like to largely contribute to offsetting the carbon on your flight? The issue here is that increasingly it's becoming a major issue for the tourism sector. People are questioning how much of an impact they're having when they travel, and it's manifesting itself at the moment most clearly in the business events marketplace, particularly for Australia. We're a long way from anywhere, you know, it's a long-haul destination. Once you get here, everything's long-haul. We're now missing out on the bids for huge business conferences, which are a really big part of our tourism economy. Simply because the companies who might be sponsoring those conferences or be behind them are saying, no, we're not sending all of our delegates all that way. That'll do terrible things to our carbon targets, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So it is a moment in time where, from the larger tourism industry's perspective, we need to see some action in this space. I think the industry has, across the board, invested significantly, both intellectually and financially, in trying to see a result. Sooner rather than later. And I can only commend the Queensland Government for being so far ahead of the pack in terms of supporting outcomes in this space.

Fiona Messent:Well, I think, I mean, the fires in France and Spain at the moment are a clear reason for why the whole economy needs to decarbonise. And ultimately, with aviation, we are hard to abate. And it is costly to decarbonise. But we need to start now because if we wait another 10 years, another 15 years, our customers won't like it, our investors won't like it, and we are trying to build a whole new industry. So SAF is available now. It is a drop-in fuel. It's why we're so focused on getting it right. But if we wait too long, I think the cost that we're seeing will be even greater than what we're experiencing today.

Margy Osmond:I mean, if you, you know, we brought out some of the European airlines earlier this year to talk specifically to government, and their number one piece of advice was do it now. You have an opportunity to learn from everybody else and do it more quickly. And yes, there are other options to be considered, but if we spend all of our time considering it, nothing will happen.

Fiona Walmsley:Absolutely. And I think for Virgin being a domestic focused airline primarily, we're very aware of the fact that Australia is such a large landmass with our population dispersed right across it in large distances, even, even when it's just a domestic flight. And we really need to protect that as an essential service to the flying Australian public and protect our license to grow over the longer term. Oh, kia ora.

Kiri Hannifin:I think you'll find with the 4 of us that we'll probably say pretty much the same thing, so I won't repeat what my friends here have said, but exactly.

Margy Osmond:Ladies on the sofa rule.

Kiri Hannifin:We're going to be in violent agreement, I think.

Miriam Wijemanne:How does it fit in a bigger commercial picture and in an international context? In the context of Corsair commitments, net-zero commitments, safeguard mechanism we have in Australia? Does any of you want to— one of the airlines take that question?

Margy Osmond:I have to leave that to the airlines.

Fiona Messent:Sorry about that.

Kiri Hannifin:I think it's becoming increasingly commercial for airlines, both as a challenge and as an opportunity. The challenge, I think, being the cost, and it's still quite nascent. some of the tools that we need to decarbonise. But the opportunity, if you think about what's happening with fossil jet fuel at the moment, and the opportunity to have an alternative or a more strategic source of fuel, means that it's something that we should all think about. So I think it's both an opportunity and a challenge. But, you know, to your point, Fiona, I think the quicker we go, probably the less cost we'll get—

Fiona Messent:have to I think it has to be commercial. Like, this can't be a nice-to-do or like a fun thing on the side, or we're doing it for the greater good. It has to be commercial, otherwise none of this will scale. We have to be looking at how the whole supply chain contributes to it. Do our customers want it? If so, what sort of products do they need? So that's exactly how we're approaching it, and I think that's the only way it's going to work.

Margy Osmond:whole Fiona, what about you?

Fiona Messent:basis of having CORSIA, for example, as a global market-based mechanism, was to level the playing field globally of how airlines are thinking about this. And to your point on social licence, so that we can continue growing, because we need to continue growing. We're, we're a vast continent, as Fiona said, and we're connected to the rest of the world. So it has to be commercial, because otherwise we're not going to get anywhere.

Margy Osmond:And I think there's another element here. I know this is aviation conference, so please nobody shoot me when I mention the word cruise. But for the cruise industry, which is an incredibly important one for the visitor economy here in Australia, they have a need for this fuel outcome as well. And we've had, you know, people in from the, you know, the head of decarbonisation for Carnival in the US, who make it abundantly clear that being able to source that kind of fuel here in Australia will determine in the future whether they in fact send ships here. So it has a long-term impact on the viability of our cruise industry as well.

Miriam Wijemanne:Just have seen David has shown the numbers that emissions overall has been growing, and we know that part of it is because aviation and air traffic is growing globally. So what are you doing actively at the moment to reduce the emissions?

Fiona Walmsley:Yeah, I can start. I'll start with that. I think the, uh, the really near-term practical actions that we're certainly taking as Virgin and more broadly as an industry are the newer generation, more fuel-efficient aircraft. I think that's, that's been mentioned by a couple of the other speakers already this morning. Um, that's an immediate commercial impact from the fuel cost as well as the emissions reduction. So our newer Boeing aircraft are around 20% more fuel efficient than the ones that they're replacing. And fuel efficiency, just using that fuel as efficiently as possible, again, is a commercial and sustainability win. So they're those really near-term practical actions that we can take. Then you start getting into the slightly more challenging areas around SAF We know that it works, we know that it's available, but the economics are still challenged. And then beyond that into more innovative technologies potentially for the future, which I think we all have to keep an eye on. But in the immediate term, it's that real practical implementable focus.

Miriam Wijemanne:Thank you. Kiri, I know Air New Zealand had a go on beta technologies for a few months. What were the learnings there, or what was the experience?

Fiona Walmsley:Thank you.

Kiri Hannifin:So at the end of last year into the beginning of this year, Air New Zealand with Beta, which is a US Vermont-based aircraft manufacturer, did a technical demonstration of an electric aircraft in 3 or 4 of our ports in New Zealand for a few months, and it was a kind of a partnership between us airports and our regulator to see how it would go, and it was excellent. We had— one of the things I most loved about it is we went out to our pilots and asked, you know, which— who would like to be part of the program, and we had 2 wide-body pilots fly the little tiny small-gauge aircraft for 5 months, and they enjoyed it. So we learnt a lot. They're very easy to fix. The pilots are also the engineers. Obviously, they're quick to fuel, and they really sort of suited our environment in New Zealand. We've got lots of renewable energy. We mostly fly short distances, and our regulators— our regulator was, you know, happy with how we ran it. We ran it under an experimental license from the US, but yeah, it was good, and we learned a lot. It's It's still— they're evolving their technology very quickly. They're a great, a great company if anyone wants to look into them.

Miriam Wijemanne:Yeah, it was—

Kiri Hannifin:we enjoyed it.

Miriam Wijemanne:Thank you. It was a small-scale aircraft, but same company together with GE Aerospace had a flight last week at the Farnborough Airshow in the UK of a hybrid flight. So means the same like the hybrid cars. It's flown on jet fuel, but with a battery that can be switched on and off. Saab 340, so reasonably big passenger flight. Is that something we should look more at, at electric flight for regional domestic flight?

Fiona Messent:Yeah, I mean, we should be looking at all solutions. I think we as Qantas are really focused on the solutions that are available now. But of course, electric hybrid and, and hopefully hydrogen aircraft— I'm looking at Airbus— will someday be a reality. But from our perspective, it's a long way off, and there's a lot we can do in between now and then on SAF to be able to reduce emissions in the nearer term. But there's huge potential for it in Australia, particularly given regional and rural communities But to give you a sense of scale, our Q400s that we fly in the regions have 75 seats. So until we see something at that size, we're just going to continue to monitor the market before we actually engage.

Margy Osmond:Yeah, I mean, I think there are implications at the smaller end of that electric market from the tourism industry's point of view, and for airports in terms of how they plan their future, the whole low altitude economy piece and what will happen with these smaller electric flying car type things. I mean, this year at the Beijing Motor Show, you could sit in and trial a 2-seater electric flying car. It's an excellent thing. This will revolutionise the tourism industry here in Australia if these things get really substantial take-up. And we know that CASA is already looking at draft guidelines for those small—

Fiona Walmsley:Yeah.

Margy Osmond:smaller flight pieces. So we shall see. It's exciting times.

Miriam Wijemanne:Yeah, advanced air mobility. So we make it much easier for everyone who would stay this afternoon to go to the Barossa Valley or Kangaroo Island. So will you get there for the next conference?

Fiona Messent:Good luck to air traffic control. Yeah.

Miriam Wijemanne:What's with Virgin Airlines? Is that something, electric aircraft, something you would— is on the horizon, or Something to consider.

Fiona Walmsley:Probably very similar answer to what Fiona has mentioned around that. I think innovation is critical in sustainability, and I think it's imperative for Virgin and for the industry to keep an eye on all of those emerging technologies if we're going to advance sustainability in aviation. I think at the moment, though, as I said, the focus for Virgin is very much on those proven, implementable, nearer-term solutions and levers that we can manage now and how we continue to develop the economics around SAF to increase the uptake from those numbers that we heard in the, in the prior presentation.

Miriam Wijemanne:Thank you. So we not only had electric flight recently, we also had Airbus announcing a few weeks ago to look again at a hydrogen fuel cell engine with MTU Aero Engines. All these changes in technology, does it change how you look at fleet decisions? We just heard from Fiji Airlines on the last panel, very difficult to get aircraft in the next few years. Is that something to consider for the order book?

Fiona Messent:I mean, until it's, until it's commercially feasible and proven, I don't think it's going to necessarily have an impact on how we're ordering fleet in the very near term. We're in the middle of our biggest fleet renewal program, and we assess that based on the aircraft that are available today. And we are seeing real benefits. And Paul mentioned it before as well on the fleet renewal they're doing. It can be up to 25% more fuel efficient than the fleet that they're replacing. So that's absolutely where we need to be focusing. But until we see that at scale, I don't—

Margy Osmond:I think there's a tonne I think there's a timing issue with this at the moment too. You know, there are the— we've all been talking about SAF for a little while now, but there has never been a moment, I think, when state and federal governments have been as focused as they now are on the issue of fuel security. So as an industry, whether it's the aviation sector or the wider visitor economy, this is absolutely the right moment to be considering it. We're in the process of having some discussions with the National Farmers at the moment. National Farmers Federation, who are very positive about a future SAF industry here in Australia and how they'll be part of it. But I also think it's interesting that Paul was here from Fiji Airlines this morning, because from the federal government's point of view, none of these outcomes are wholly and solely about the aviation sector. There is a diplomatic issue in terms of our Pacific neighbours and their capacity to produce some sort of SAF SAF or fuel that will give them certainty. They have zero capacity to produce this fuel, and probably 2 Degrees New Zealand maybe falls into the same category from a feed perspective, feedstock perspective.

Fiona Messent:So there are a whole lot of other implications around SAF at the moment that probably give it a stand-up start, because government will be thinking about it in a particular way with other influences that sit I think that's exactly why we as an industry have to be really clear on what we want too, because if it does become a fuel security issue, we have to be really mindful of the costs that it does impose on the industry.

Fiona Walmsley:Exactly.

Fiona Messent:And what is government— I mean, we've heard it over the last 2 days, the wave of costs. We need to make sure that it's considered in that holistic perspective so that where there are opportunities to bring down costs elsewhere, Is this the right cost to bring in? How do we make sure it's the impact on ticket prices are minimised? And that's certainly where we're really focused, is looking at that bigger picture of how can they do this in the right way. And to your earlier point, actually learn from Europe that's gone before us, the UK, the US. They've got really established programmes that have seen, you know, an increase in the amount of SAF available. It might not be enough, but— Yeah.

Miriam Wijemanne:David just was showing that 75% of SAF are used by European airlines, and we just had seen the announcement a few days ago, IRENA is backing a SAF production plant in Adelaide or in South Australia. How important is that for SAF in Asia-Pacific?

Margy Osmond:Well, I, I think any move is a good one that it sets the example that it's possible, but it's It's feasible, it's possible, we're doing it. I mean, you look at, once again, at Queensland, which is— and I think the Adelaide news is terrific, but Queensland is pretty much ahead of the pack because it has a very holistic view to development in this space. You know, the environmental approvals for the refinery in Townsville, in fact, the wider approvals were all delivered within a 6-month period. And I think what we have to understand here is that while the federal government will have direction on the policy outcomes here and the setting of things like mandates, should that be the, you know, direction it goes in. State governments equally have a responsibility to be prepared, and we as an industry have to help them be prepared. There's no point having it all set up with the feds and then discovering that planning provisions, access, and support at state level is years behind. That job needs to be done now. That's certainly what we're concentrating on.

Fiona Messent:Well, we're an investor in Hamar, the project you're referring to, so obviously have a bit of a bias. But the way that South Australian government has, has worked with the team has been really impressive, similar, similar to Queensland. I think all of this is really good momentum and shows it can be done, but ultimately we still need the whole puzzle to come together because we're not there yet. And, you know, they would say that themselves, like the government is critical, whether it is the state and federal intervention. intervention to make sure that they can get to FID and then actually produce the fuel. But it's a really cool project. It's using forestry residue from the Green Triangle. It's using technology that's been used in coal for the last, you know, 70 years. So it's not like there's a big tech risk here. It's actually got huge potential to serve both the shipping and aviation industry. And the South Australian government is working to get the land parcel near the port so that it easily be transferred to the airport. I think that is a really exciting prospect, but a few things need to come together, but it's moving in the right direction.

Miriam Wijemanne:Where is New Zealand on the SAF journey?

Kiri Hannifin:In production?

Miriam Wijemanne:Yeah.

Kiri Hannifin:So we've done a little bit of work on whether we can produce alternative fuels in New Zealand, and the answer is yes, including with bio woody mass, which we've got quite a big problem with in New Zealand because we've got a slash issue whereby we have floods and the remnants of the forestry sector sort of end up in towns, which isn't ideal. So it's possible, it's expensive, but it's possible, which is good news. So I think with South Australia and Queensland and other SAF advancements globally, that's what we need. We just need more, we need scale, we need volume, and if you look about the job we've got, all of us have to do before 2050, we need a lot more SAF. So I think it's just incredibly, you know, it's incredibly good news to see Australia doing so well in this regard. And, you know, from my perspective, congratulations.

Fiona Messent:And to give you this, like, it is— this scale is small, but we increased our SAF uptake by 5-fold over the last 12 months to a massive 1.1%. So that is monumental for us given where we— it's above the global average, obviously, seeing the slide before, but it takes a lot of work to get to that, and you have to approach it in a really commercially apt way as well. But we need that every year now.

Miriam Wijemanne:I saw a question coming through from the audience. SAF— question was, SAF importance is clear for the airline industry, but are there other industries that are supporting the SAF production as well?

Margy Osmond:Well, I think I mentioned the cruise sector. I mean, I won't say they're as advanced as aviation in this space, but it's certainly a focus for them. I mean, I think that we're concentrating a lot on airlines here, but airports themselves are making a huge contribution now to the discussion and the pressure around establishing SAF industries and making it possible for there to be you know, supplies that are feasible and available. And most of the master planning for those major airports incorporates that, which I think is terrific and is a really important piece of collaboration between the airports and the airlines themselves.

Miriam Wijemanne:Fiona, Virgin, what practical steps can airlines and airports take to make net zero happen?

Fiona Walmsley:I think that collaboration is key for all parts of sustainability, and I mean, that's a very clear collaboration in aviation. There's the sort of fuel blending and supply infrastructure and making SAF available for— which makes airlines, you know, in an easier position to then take the uptake, and we really need to make make sure that we're not collaborating only with the airports, but with all parts of the value chain. And in your previous point, in terms of other industries, I think the ag sector is another one that's particularly interested in what happens in the biofuel space. They're providers of the feedstock. I think the collaboration in general right across the value chain is critical.

Miriam Wijemanne:Kiri, do you have any experience when you had the electric aircraft How that worked together with the airport?

Fiona Messent:It was good.

Kiri Hannifin:The airports were— there's some airport colleagues in the room— they were fantastic. I think New Zealand airports have— we've been very blessed that they really have embraced the idea of novel propulsion aircraft happening one day in New Zealand. And so to the extent they can get ready for it, they are. So thank you for that support. So airports were, you know, for example, There was no charge to Air New Zealand and Beta for running the technical demonstrator in New Zealand, which made it a lot easier for us to justify doing it. So yeah, I think there's a question here around whether VA and QF and Air New Zealand can collaborate on sustainability. And I think we're so fortunate that, along with safety, this is one area that we can work together on as airlines, because otherwise it's a race to the bottom, probably. And so Collaboration, to your point, Fiona, is incredibly important. And I think, you know, like safety and, you know, other sort of operational integrity stuff, this is something we can do together as a sector without, you know, cutting each other off. And so, yeah, I think we can't do it without collaboration, and we're very lucky that, you know, most of us go in willingly to get a good result for ourselves and our customers and our countries.

Fiona Messent:And airlines, for Air New Zealand, I can say I see Stephen up there has been critical in bringing us together as well in, you know, a non-competitive way. But it is, it is a really important piece to collaborate. It's also an important collaboration opportunity for our corporate customers, and that's where we've seen a lot of engagement because there's actually a win-win there. Corporate customers have Scope 3 targets with increased reporting requirements in Australia. Everyone's much more focused on what their footprint is, how do they And so we've been really looking at how we can scale. The only way we got to 1.1 was because of our corporate customers and their ability to help us take on that green premium. And so I think that is a big opportunity for the Australian market. I think it's much more mature in Australia and North America, and particularly with sectors like the hyperscalers and, you know, the tech companies. And I think as an industry, we need to do a lot more.

Margy Osmond:Thank you.

Fiona Messent:I'd agree.

Fiona Walmsley:And even the— well, in particular, the corporate customers, the amount of interest and discussions that we're having around this space is increasing all the time as well. And I think even if that is driven by the transparency obligations in the new reporting requirements, that's just another lever that's being used to drive the conversation. Yeah, I agree. Forcing these conversations to happen more, which forces more collaboration. All of these elements are really needed to help drive us forward collectively.

Miriam Wijemanne:Thank you. We have a question here. How's the uptake of carbon offsetting evolving?

Fiona Messent:Excuse my coughing, I've been trying to keep it under control.

Miriam Wijemanne:SAF, Fiona had absolutely no voice last week, so you are really lucky that Yeah, I think carbon offsetting or carbon credits are critical.

Fiona Messent:Oh, thank you, I've got 3 now. Thank you. We're all doing well. Carbon credits play an incredibly critical role in the decarbonisation of aviation because it's part of Corsair domestically, it's part of Safeguard where we can't decarbonise ourselves We are investing in other sectors that can do it now. We have a pretty big portfolio just given our safeguard compliance and Corsia, and we do it with an integrity lens. So we are conscious of making sure that a ton of carbon abated through the carbon credit is actually a ton is a ton is a ton. And and we've done that really successfully at the carbon. market spot price. So it can be done. It doesn't— integrity doesn't need to cost more. But I think it is a really important thing that we as airlines continue to advocate for robust and high-integrity markets because they will be important right to 2050.

Miriam Wijemanne:Absolutely.

Fiona Walmsley:I mean, I agree with everything that Fiona's mentioned and certainly the importance of integrity and the role that carbon credits play in, in this whole picture. I think we're seeing a slight sort of drop-off, if anything, in terms of retail flyers opting in to pay what is on average $3.50, depending on route selection, etc., to purchase that offset for their flight. So I think there's an important element of that cost balance that comes back in there for— for retail customers, where they really feel like the airline needs to take some of that cost, this cost of living challenge more broadly, and how we can kind of solve for that element. I think the, as I said, the corporate interest is increasing. We're not seeing the same in the retail flyer sense.

Fiona Messent:Okay.

Miriam Wijemanne:Oh, nothing big. How much premium are airlines willing to pay for SAF? I'm not sure if that's a question of willingness or how much commercially is viable. Do you have any number? It's a question from the audience.

Kiri Hannifin:Not a number, but, you know, margins are tight in airlines, and I think at the moment with the cost of fuel, it makes it— it's a niggle. It's a challenge. I mean, that's the exact challenge, and so which is why we need scale. With scale comes volume, with volume comes, you know, a reduction in costs. So slightly chicken and egg at the moment because we need to invest, but it's so expensive to invest. But, you know, costs are high and increasing, and it's expensive to fly, and, you know, we're 51% owned by our government, And so our obligations to get New Zealanders around our own country and abroad at a price that is affordable is a responsibility that we bear, you know, as a privilege. So it's a good question. There's no— it's a good question. There's no real answer I can give you, but the pressures that we're facing because of the cost of fossil jet makes SAF particularly challenging at the moment.

Fiona Messent:And I think that's why we do need to— we kind of think about it in 3 ways. One is we are very strategic in where we procure our fuel. So we only focus on those areas where there is jurisdictional support. We pick up 55 million litres a year out of LAX because that's where there is a lot of subsidies available. But also we then stack it on with the corporate partners that I'm continuing to talk about.

Fiona Walmsley:Yeah.

Fiona Messent:talk about, but it is really important to get that stacking so that you can get it as close to fossil fuel price as you can, and it is possible actually. And so I think that's, that's the way we need to be approaching it. But the other critical piece which we talked about before is how government comes in, and that's obviously inherent in the first part of the answer.

Miriam Wijemanne:Another question here, what are airlines doing with regard to other pillars of IATA? Does any of you understand that question in particular? Does a person in the audience may want to elaborate on that question? Was voted up, so someone really loved that question. No, I only would think that's in terms of Corsia and their international Commitments to net zero?

Fiona Messent:And maybe on fuel efficiency, we have over 40 initiatives across our group to reduce our fuel burn, and they're things like single-engine taxi, APU use, all of that kind of thing. We're really— we've been embedding that for about 5 years now, and it has seen a massive impact across the group. But that's kind of the base level thing we should be doing, and particularly in a fuel crisis is critical because Every litre of fuel you're not using is a benefit to the balance sheet.

Miriam Wijemanne:Anyone else? Same. Another question here. Which is a more important metric, emissions per available seat kilometre or total emissions? And I think we just have seen David's analysis that the total emissions are going up, but the emissions per available seat kilometre Started coming down a tiny bit. Any one of you want to take that one?

Fiona Messent:I think they're both important.

Fiona Walmsley:Yeah.

Miriam Wijemanne:We measure it all.

Kiri Hannifin:I was going to say the same.

Fiona Walmsley:I think it's very hard in sustainability to kind of call out one metric as more important. I think you need to be looking at all of them.

Kiri Hannifin:Yeah, we look at them all too.

Miriam Wijemanne:I would, you know, thinking about that, we have a growing air traffic Right. So total emissions in that sense would automatically go up if we are not decarbonising our per available seat kilometre faster than we are actually growing air traffic. And I think, you know, at least I have sometimes these conversations where people go like, oh, why do you need to fly at all? Like, well, we are not going back to not flying. The question is more how can we decarbonise so that we keep flying, right?

Fiona Messent:Yeah.

Miriam Wijemanne:Is there— do you have any sense of how we can accelerate that process in terms of decarbonising per flight, per person, per kilometre?

Fiona Walmsley:I think it's the balance of the levers that we've spoken about already, making sure that that you're using that fuel that you do use as efficiently as possible, having the most efficient aircraft available. And I think load factor is another really important lever running.

Fiona Messent:Yeah.

Fiona Walmsley:I mean, our business model tends towards a higher load factor model, which again helps to bring that metric down. So it's like all things in sustainability, optimisation game across a lot of different bits and pieces.

Miriam Wijemanne:Thank you. To wrap up, one last question. You have one sentence. If you would have one free wish, what would you like to see the government to do in the next 12 months? And I would say, or the airports.

Margy Osmond:Well, because I obviously believe in Santa Claus, I'd like to see a project active in every state in the country in terms of the production of SAF. You know, if we learnt one thing from the Europeans that we brought out earlier this year, it's just get on with it. So I'd like to see a project up and running, or at least in the planning stage, in every state in the country.

Miriam Wijemanne:Thank you. Fiona?

Fiona Messent:Can I say the easy one? Sorry, guys. But I think appropriate policy that scales SAF.

Fiona Walmsley:Quite similar, I think, a kind of bankable investment signal to help at least one project get over the line to kickstart the domestic SAF industry.

Kiri Hannifin:Yeah, I think decarbonising aviation is something the market alone can't solve for. So yeah, I think Government direction or policy is something we will benefit from as a sector, which you're seeing, of course, in other jurisdictions where the government have given, you know, policy surety of next steps.

Miriam Wijemanne:All right, thank you. Please join me in thanking the panel.

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