Connecting More Growing Smarter - The Future of Airline Networks

Transcript

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:Now, as you can see, everyone, from the title, we're talking about connecting. We're talking about partnerships, connectivity, alliances, but we're not talking about necessarily what's happening today. We're looking ahead to what's happening tomorrow. Now, I just wanted to start off by reminding you all we have a fabulous panel here today. Please take the opportunity to ask questions. Can we bring the Slido app? The QR code is up here. Scan that code. You can ask your questions that way. They will come through to us on the screen. We will get to those towards the end of our conversation today. You can also upvote questions. So if you see a question there that you really like, you can actually vote on it and it moves up to the top of the list. The one other thing to mention, if you want a question to go to one of the individual panellists versus all of our panellists, please put a name. So for example, say, Ben, I'd like to talk to you about X, Y, and Z. Okay, so please go ahead and do that. Again, the QR codes are, are up there. Alright, gentlemen, let's start talking about partnerships. Now, when we look at alliances and the way they stand at the moment, there are 3 major alliances. All of these alliances, correct me if I'm wrong, started in the 1990s. That's a long time ago now. Things have changed a lot, and yes, things have changed in the alliance world too. But is there still room for these kind of alliances? What should be happening now? Because I know, Ross, you and I had a conversation last week, and you actually said it can't be as structured as it is now. There's— Sure.

Ross Leggett:So if I could start that the Oneworld Alliance for us still is our foundation of alliance partnerships and interlining. So our strongest and deepest relationships are still within the alliance. We have recently been more joint businesses within the alliance, so that with even to a deeper relationship, say with American Airlines or Japan Airlines, we're now BA, AY in Europe and Malaysian here in Asia. But of course, the, any of the alliances are stronger in some geographies than they are in others. So when I look at our network, there are areas, particularly here in Asia, where we reach out to beyond the alliance. So we're not contained to relationships just within the alliance. So we have a, a joint business with Garuda, which started last year. We also have codeshare and relationships, say, with IndiGo in India, which was traditionally LCC, and recently announced a relationship with Korean Airlines, which is, of course, in SkyTeam. So, the bilateral needs kind of override the alliance, alliance part of it. And I think that will continue, that if we look at it on a route-by-route basis, then we need to see see which partnerships make the best sense for the, um, the, the route. And we're not restricted to just full-service carriers, as Ives said, so for, um, LCC carriers, hybrid carriers, if there, there's no safety issues involved, then it's providing that extended network to our passengers. And that's what— that continues to be the most— the biggest driver, really, that we have.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:So, so is there still a place for alliances? I mean, is there, you know, a reason why it can't just be partnerships?

Ross Leggett:Yeah, I think there's that customer proposition side of it where across every member of the alliance we have a common service level. Okay, so our top-tier passengers are recognised on any flight that they get on. There's common, say, baggage rules, frequent flyer points, that kind of thing that It's still very vital in the full-service forum. I don't think they'll be going away, but there will be increased relationships outside of the alliance as well.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:Ben, what's your view on this type of partnership model?

Benyamin Ismail:Okay, I think for us, I think for low-cost carriers generally, we don't do much alliances. I think for AirAsia, it's slightly different. Our alliances are pretty much in-house. As you know, AirAsia, we have a family of 5 airlines. We have Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia, and Cambodia. So generally, all those have their own AOCs, and they have their own number of aircraft. So all you see is just one brand, but what we do is we interconnect the network and all that together. So that's an alliance within ourselves. But I think, as I think we get wiser and older, I think like Tony decided that now let's start to open up a little bit. So one of the partnerships that we just started probably a month ago is dealing up with Pegasus. As you know, AirAsia X flies to Istanbul, and basically Pegasus is one, probably one of the biggest Asia, North Asia kind of LCCs there. Yeah. And what it gives us the opportunity is to connect from Kuala Lumpur to Istanbul to the whole of Europe, and that's what we're doing. And a lot of the issues that we don't do alliances with a lot of airlines is a lot of the low costs are onto one systems. Most of us are into Navitas, while all the other full-service airlines, they are all on other services, all other networks. So I think it's a bit difficult for us to invest. So I think, Having someone who has the same DNA with you, which is Pegasus, makes sense for us. So I think that's the one of many that maybe we'll start. So I think that's the goal for us for, for, for this year.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because Kamal, if I bring you into the conversation here as well, um, you are an LCC, but you're also a hybrid. So you're almost more of that hybrid model. So how does that work? Because we've obviously got 2 very different experiences sitting here today.

Kamal Hingorani:Yeah, thank you. SpiceJet is a hybrid. We are conventionally called an LCC. That's how we had started 20 years back. But the way it has evolved is, and especially in India, LCCs, the so-called LCCs, are the ones which have expanded the most. 80% of the capacity in India today is LCCs. And India, as we all know, is the fastest growing aviation market in the world, the 3rd largest aviation market in the world, and growing. We started off as a typical LCC. We followed honestly the model of Southwest Airlines then. But what we realized as we went along, or rather very, very initial stage in India, was that There is no lower cost compared to what a full service goes through, except for aspects of, if I may say from a customer perspective, serving meals, interlining baggage, etc. The biggest cost, the line of costs that we saw in Europe and US where they really started low-cost airlines 50 years back, was secondary airports where either they were not charging at all or they were charging very low parking landing fees. We don't have that in India. It's the same whether whatever model you follow, absolutely. And very much unlike even Malaysia, I remember having seen the AirAsia KUL airport and I think it's a beautiful efficient airport, very, very efficient and No frills, and of course there's a cost difference between the two airports, and that's where a critical cost element. So that's and that bakes into the unit economics, and that's where the difference is. So because India typically has no advantage for airports, overflying, navigation, or any other major costs, fuel is the same whether we. Whether it's for LCC or full service. So the largest cost, and when you go and lease aircraft, the aircraft leases, the MR, the maintenance costs and all are absolutely the same. You know, so really the only difference that we see is that what we do is we do a turnaround at every airport in 30 minutes, 189 passengers out and in with 3 tonnes of cargo. So the efficiencies have built in for which we have invested sufficiently in technology to make sure, and this applies for all LCCs in India, and I talk for the industry at this stage. And that's probably the advantage that we have from a cost perspective, it's a very small advantage.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:It is a small advantage. I see you nodding a lot, Ross, and we're listening to Kamal.

Ross Leggett:I was thinking of the evolution that we have that If you think of the, the current code share and interlining environment we have, that was born out of necessity of using, you know, 50-year-old GDS systems and computer systems. Now, looking to the future in 10, 20 years, if modern airline retailing takes place, then selling partner sectors at point of sale, so when you buy your tickets, We won't need— the necessity of having a codeshare probably won't be as much. You can still partner with a sector without putting your code on it. You can have mileage there without putting your code on it. Through baggage connections, you can have all the things that we need in an interline environment now without the codeshare and without the GDS. So it'll be easier, I think, in the future to connect with any carrier. GDS part of it will be removed.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:So for connectivity, I think, and Ben, I think again you're in a slightly different situation here because of your model, but does the advent of new technology, which is happening and changing so rapidly, change how you are going to fly in the future? So what your connectivity looks like, as you just talked about your new relationship with Pegasus, Is there more of that, do you think, as technology changes? I mean, do we get a world where every airline flies on the same system so that it doesn't matter regardless of which airline you fly and regardless whether it's a full-cost carrier or an LCC, you can have the same connectivity wherever you go geographically?

Benyamin Ismail:Yes and no. I think for us, I think technology is important. I think within the organisation, we're trying to explore as much as we can. I mean, the future of AI, the future of everything, GDS and all that. So I think Pegasus is just a start of everything. I think we're also looking into some of the GDS that we're probably going to connect more to the on-sale sellers. I think one of our biggest things that we have now is our online platform, which is AirAsia Move, which is our website that we sell our tickets. Actually, we're the only airline actually in terms of LCC where we don't have our own website anymore. We actually have an AirAsia Move that sells predominantly AirAsia, but also we sell all the other airlines as well on our website. And really what we're trying to do is to make sure that it gives the people the opportunity to— we're kind of like a Kayak, or we're kind of like the Skyscanner of the world. And what Tony believes is that we want to be an online OTA as well on top of an airline. So I think that is the kind of things that we're moving away from the traditional ways, and that's what we're doing generally.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:And when you look at your flyers, I mean, predominantly for LCC, you tend to have the younger generation of flyers. Not all of them, obviously, but very mobile, you know, very much, very mobile-based. I'm sure that that sort of technology is making a huge difference to that audience.

Benyamin Ismail:Yes, it is, it is. I mean, for— I mean, at the moment, I think a lot of the technology is usually now on the phone, as you can see. I mean, generally, as you see it, Unfortunately for the LCCs, you look at our profile of travelers, a lot of it is between the 24s and 32s, and that's about 60% of that. So really, as long as you make the phone as effective as you can and our website as connected as we can, it's easy. And I think that's what— I mean, we have a rep here as well for AirAsia Move, and what we're trying to do is to make it very seamless. You can buy air travel, you can buy hotels, you can buy holidays, you can buy everything all on the phone. within 5 clicks. So I think what we're trying to do is to try to avoid as much drop-off as we can online and get people through our phones as fast as we can.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:It's interesting because I know that this is something— Ross, when we spoke, you talked about the importance of getting communities, whole communities involved into flying. So tell us, tell our audience a little bit about what you're doing, because there's some interesting—

Ross Leggett:Yeah, particularly here in Japan. So as the demographics in Japan change, we have an ageing reducing population, that stimulating regional markets was a long-term goal. And we have a programme that we call the Kanketsu Nagari Kansuda, and it's about connecting with regional markets. And when we have passengers travel to a regional market, we want them to connect with the community, and that not only promotes repeat traffic, but it promotes a relationship between the passenger and the region. So that even when the passenger, say, goes back to their hometown, they have a connection to where they've been. They might buy produce from that area again. It stimulates the local community and the economics of the community. And that extends to not just domestic, but within overseas as well. So when you're coming to Japan, the overtourism of Tokyo and Osaka, we want people to get out more into the regional centres. Come to Hokkaido, go to Kyushu. There's a lot to offer for inbound passengers, and to see more than just the tourist sites, to get engaged with the community as well.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:It's, it's an interesting model, and, and it's one I suppose that would work, or does work I should say, very well in India. As well, you are one of the fastest growing airline markets, aviation markets in the world.

Kamal Hingorani:The fastest.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:The fastest. Thank you for that, Kamal. So tell us, what does that look like from your perspective when you look forward into the future and you see the growth of the market?

Kamal Hingorani:Technology, technology of course is evolving so fast that we really can't even keep track. And we keep imbibing as much technology as possible. Like both Ben and Ross mentioned, that it's the younger generation, Gen Z, and now the future gens that come in are the ones who actually, what we've realized in India is, don't even want to talk to a human being. They just want to, their integral part of their body is this, I call it a structure which also evolves, and everything happens there and they want everything to happen there in a jiffy. They just want to, they find where they want to go, they decide, they buy everything online, and like Ben said, 5 clicks, and they pick up their hotels and everything and we have the technology going. In fact, We at SpiceJet realized long back that technology will play a major role because when we started a lot of new routes, which we did, unconnected routes, we stimulated so much demand that it was the younger generation who was wanting to travel from a tier 2 to a tier 3 direct, which was never there 20 years, even until 10 years back. And then I still remember we were the first airline, at least in this part of the world, actually anywhere if I'm not wrong, but I am open to be corrected, to have given a PNR on WhatsApp. This we did way back in 2014. And I remember we were the first airline globally. The moment you make your booking, the PNR comes to you on WhatsApp. WhatsApp is a is the only channel, you know, where people communicate right from 80-year-olds to 16-year-olds, even younger. And that was a very pleasant surprise for our customers. And that's when they also realized, and of course all other airlines, LCCs in India followed suit. And the future is One of the things you asked, what will happen 5 years hence? Actually, I don't even know, to be honest. We don't know how AI will evolve and change what. We are hearing this debate about stopping AI from evolving beyond a point, and I wish they do. But even if they don't, even if they do, the way AI is evolving is something that— It's a fact. We don't know, we'll still fly planes, we'll still fly efficiently, we will probably have faster and more efficient and cost-efficient operational excellence. And everything that we now focus on is towards customer journey being effortless, so to say. Hmm. Absolutely no friction. And for us as an airline, at a cost which is, you know, economically viable.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:So you said something interesting there, Kamal. You said you don't know what, if you look out, what the industry is going to look like in 5 years. You don't know. Well, you're absolutely right. None of us know. But what do you think it's going to look like, knowing what you do? You've been in the industry for a long time.

Kamal Hingorani:Yeah, 40 years. Hmm. And I worked with conventional airlines across the world. I call them conventional. Legacy is what we used to call them at one stage. Then came LCCs and we evolved, and I don't know whether it's LCC or hybrid. But I'll just quote, to answer that, I'll just quote something that I cannot forget. And this was one year before COVID in 2019, January, at the World Economic Forum in Davos where Bill Gates was there hosting a small lunch for 20 of us, and I happened to be one of those privileged people. And he made a 7-minute presentation, and one of the slides that he mentioned, just 7 or 8 slides, was that 7 to 10 years later, 60% of the current tech jobs will cease to exist. This is in 2019, and the people in the room, I was probably the smallest mortal there. There were CEOs of global tech companies, and everybody just fell silent. And his next slide said, even I don't know what the new jobs will be. Now, this is coming from this, the father of technology, I call him. Okay, so you've asked me a question, what will happen 5 years later. I'm a very small mortal, I can't even imagine what will happen. It's crystal, it's, you know, it's crystal gazing. Maybe my 2 colleagues here who have better, better crystal

Ross Leggett:balls know better

Kamal Hingorani:than me.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:Do you want to have a go, Ross? You've got for what, 42 years with JAL?

Ross Leggett:In 5 years. Yeah, I think there'll be, if we think in the macro environment, that the capacity, the amount of aircraft flying, there's not gonna be a huge increase. There will be restrained in capacity increase. I think of restraints at airports. There's not gonna be a huge increase in slots worldwide. So that we'll be relying even more on connectivity and partner, aircraft to, to service the itinerary. What I think the big changes will be in the modern airline retailing, or in the way we distribute, and, and I think in, in 5 years it's foreseeable that we will be doing so much more, um, online with being able to purchase hotels and, and cars and restaurant reservations all in the same platform. That's going to be that big change that we've had that legacy distribution now for what, 60 years, to go into that. And that changes the way we look at, say, revenue management as well. Instead of being fixed into RBDs, we're now released into a very free environment to price as well. That's going to be the big changes, I think, for legacy carriers. But connectivity will continue and increase, I think. Thank you.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:You want to give it a go, Ben?

Benyamin Ismail:Yeah, sure. I think for LCCs, I think, as you know, I think we're very cost-conscious. I mean, every dollar matters for us. And I think having technology advancements is very important. I mean, he spoke about GDS and sales, and I'll go more towards airports. I think, as you can see in some countries where you see Australia, you see the Ryanairs of the world, the EasyJets of the world, you come to the airport, they're normal humans. Everything is all just self-check-ins, everything's done that way, and we need to do that more in Southeast Asia. In Southeast Asia, when you come in, it feels like a market. There's so many people, people are still checking in with check-in counters. We have to move that away. And I think that's why we're pushing airports across all our network to be as technology advanced as we can. So really, I think the younger ones, the younger generations, I think what they want is just to have all their tickets in their phone, their check-ins, their bag tags, all done. They do it all on their own, check it in, go straight to the gate, and all that efficiently as much as we can. So I think with AI, we're trying to reduce as much manpower as we can within the organization, and we have to work with the airports as well to make sure that airports function in that way as well. And that's something that we have to really push hard in Asia.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:Well, so I guess this is part of the problem, isn't it, when it comes to airports? Because airports don't all necessarily have the same priorities. the same drivers that airlines do. So, you know, how do you bridge that?

Benyamin Ismail:It does, because at the end of the day, it's a cost. I mean, if they build less check-in counters, that's less cost for them. So in a way, if you just build just more kiosks, you can even be better and more efficient. So for them, there'll be no manpower and everything else, so as well as everything else. So that's what we're trying to do as much as we can.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:And Where you're looking at in the Southeast Asian region, are they open?

Benyamin Ismail:Yes, slowly. I think we see in KLIA itself, as you know, KL now is probably the— well, actually, it's the biggest hub for LCCs in the world. We want to do that. You can see the throughputs there. We're number 4 in that in terms of the world. I think we want to build— we're working closely with Malaysian Airports. They see it. KLIA too, we are 98% open. of the market share of that airport. So we want to build that to make sure that it's kind of like our airport and make it as seamless as we can for everybody. And I think the great examples is the EasyJets and the Ryanairs of the world, and of course, on your side of the world, Virgin is an exemplary example of, you know, there's nobody there when you fly Virgin. So I think that's what we want to be, the kind of airports that we want to envision.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:Yes, please, Kamal, jump in.

Kamal Hingorani:Completely in agreement with both Ross and Ben. We need to have efficient airports. The younger generation doesn't want to deal with human beings anymore when they are even, their friends are all on all social media channels. But what specifically for India we've realized over the last 3, 4 years with so much of AI and all, and we've done some dipstick surveys with our customers, We strongly believe that the human factor can't be taken away, especially at airports. There is a sizable middle-aged and seniors who travel who are not so tech savvy. Their children may book their tickets on their apps, but those people, typically 45 to 80, are the ones who still want to meet a check-in agent to hand over the bag. Rather than do it themselves and print a bag tag. And that's something we've realized in India. And the reason is that the bigger growth of air travel in India is from tier 2 and tier 3 cities compared to the metros and the super metros of Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai. In fact, the metros, the traffic has grown about 6% year on year over the last 10 years. But the traffic that originates or grows from smaller towns, and when I say smaller towns, these are smaller towns for India. Each of these 100 smaller tier 2, tier 3 is larger than every European capital in terms of population. People from these parts, majority really want to do the conventional check-in, etc., and communicate with human beings. And that's something we've realized and we consciously moving forward make sure that we have the right balance. We offer the technology and whatever the younger generation needs, at the same time make sure that we have those, you know, customer touchpoints with human interface. And that's, that I think I'll speak for India, one of the things that will not change over the next 5 to 10 years or in my lifetime, whatever it is, will be that we will continue to need those human beings.

Ross Leggett:Yeah. Ross? I'm thinking I have the opposite, yes, here in Japan that we're really moving towards more automation as well. So if you think of the check-in experience here, it's either check-in on the app, um, or at a self-service kiosk. Baggage drop is self, self-tagged, self-baggage drop. The, um, boarding gate is a, a QR code that you put in there. So the, the first, um, person interaction you have is probably on board. Mm-hmm. With JAL, um, for domestic particularly. Even internationally, the immigration procedures are changing a lot, that they're a lot more automated now, that you don't see that traditional immigration officer at the counter. So I think for Japan, and I guess what I see in the West as well, in America and Australia, is that movement away from having person-to-person contact through the boarding experience. I'd say the first human you see is on board in most of the exchange.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:And I think, Ben, going back to what you said earlier, you're right in the middle of that. You are moving towards Ross's model, but you're still with about where Kamal is right now in terms of getting people to change their minds.

Benyamin Ismail:Correct. I mean, yes, in a way. I mean, I think we're nearly there. Obviously, yes, we have to cater also for A bit of the older generations as well, so which is a bit tough, but we try, we try our best.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:Yeah,

Ross Leggett:and sorry, if I could just add that the changes for us are not cost-driven, they're passenger demand-driven, what our passengers are asking us for. They're not— and yes, it's more efficient, but that's not the driver.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:Yeah, interesting. So things may change, Kamal.

Kamal Hingorani:It should be for the better, better from a customer point of view. Whichever customer, a 16-year-old or an 80-year-old, and definitely better from an airline perspective because airlines are the ones that are bleeding most of the times. If you look at whether it's a geopolitical crisis or whatever it is, and I come back to India because, you know, I come from there. Ironic that it is that we are the 3rd largest aviation market. And last year, all airlines put together lost $4 billion in India. We're the fastest growing. It's paradoxical. This year we probably will be as bad as last year. I hate to say it, but so far that's the reality. And so the cost structure of an airline has to come down, at least, at least for all carriers, be it full service or low cost. Or hybrid. And unless that happens, the survival of airlines, at least in certain markets like India specifically, is really at stake. And that's something which is critical. So from an airline cost perspective, just on connectivity, I would say, for example, we need not start new destinations to add that number to go up to 50 cities in India rather than operate more frequency on certain city pairs at convenient times, of course depending on airport access slots, etc., which then brings in more economic sense for the airline as well. So the race used to be in competing airlines in the last 10 years that we are covering a network of 100 cities, you know, with 70 aircraft, for example. I'm just giving an example. I think what we've realized in the last few years is don't start new destinations unless you have done your route economics well enough, and that's where AI helps us a lot. In actually predicting demand, in predicting the pricing that we need to do, in relating to the costs that entail right from airports to spending in technology, etc. And make sure your connectivity is economically viable. So the race with competition In our opinion, in my opinion, is more to do with economic, unit economics of the airline.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:Those numbers are staggering, aren't they? Yeah. Okay, all right, so we are gonna ask, open for questions. Christine, I'm gonna shout out to you and see if we've got any questions coming through on Slido. Yes, we do. Okay, Josh from Airline Ratings. This is a question to everyone. Is there a chance that technology and AI can be detrimental to an airline, no matter if it's an LCC or a full service? That's a great question. Who wants to take that?

Ross Leggett:Me.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:Ross.

Ross Leggett:No, I don't. I think that it would be a— the travel experience, I think, if anything, is stimulated by AI. It makes it easier to research where you want to go and to places where you may not have thought of before. So the— it makes it a more efficient way of travelling. From the airline side of it, the positives, I think, will be in revenue management and the kind of the way we price, the way we distribute, and I guess on the cost side as well. I don't— I'm not scared of AI in travel.

Kamal Hingorani:Can I go next?

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:Yeah, I think we're all scared of AI slightly. Yes, Kamal.

Kamal Hingorani:It can be detrimental, at least from the cybersecurity aspect. We've had enough ransom attacks on various airlines. We experienced one 2 years back, and we had to find a solution to that. With AI evolving the way it is, I only fear that unless airlines build counter and firewalls, again, using AI well enough, we will constantly be exposed to the hackers.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:Yes.

Kamal Hingorani:And we as airlines need to invest a lot more because they are the deep dark web or whatever they are, are well, They don't have an establishment to care for, and for them, they are just criminals who want to cyberattack and get a ransom. So yes, that aspect is something that keeps us awake at night. Yeah.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:Yeah. Okay. All right. How do you balance between meeting customer demand— this is from anonymous— route expansion and keeping on-time performance quality? The comment is increasing flights is already causing more congestion, and it's visible in the decrease of on-time performance in many regions. Ben, do you want to take that one?

Benyamin Ismail:Sure. I think for us, I think for the airline itself, I mean, for us, we want to grow as big as we can. We want to go to every A to B, C to Z, or wherever we want to go. But the ideal thing is we have to make sure that the airport itself, or the regions, or the country is able to cater for that demand. For us, I think, as you know, for an airline, generally our goal is to depart on time, and anything else other than technical is beyond our control. As you can see now in the world of aviation, when we close the doors on time, usually it takes about 30 to 45 minutes. It depends on the airports. The sizable impact of the airport, the bigger it is, the longer the taxiway. Yeah. And the traffic jams on the taxiway is another thing. So really, a lot of it is how the country manages its airspace. For us, in KL in general, the waiting period on the taxiway is generally about an hour before we take off, where when you take off on time, you'll be 45 minutes late. Then after that, it's a continuous impact into the other airports as well. When we arrive, let's say, into Hokkaido today, we are an hour late and we miss our parking slot. Therefore, there's all kinds of impact that we can do. So at the end of the day, I think it's all about airports managing the capacity as much as we can. So, but for us, we want to grow as much as we can.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:Okay. All right. So we've got another question here. With expanding ease of codeshare and interline, how are you all thinking about ensuring consistent customer service across different airline segments which may lack service recovery tools that exist for your own networks? Who'd like to take that?

Ross Leggett:Probably me.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:You? Okay, Ross, go ahead.

Ross Leggett:Okay, I'll stick to the, the current traditional ways. When we negotiate a codeshare, we talk about service levels as well. We don't codeshare with airlines that don't have IOSA clearance. So safety is that basic element that we look at. Now, the Passenger disruption is always kind of the biggest element, and it goes to the operating carrier when it's day of departure. Now, we do talk to our partners in advance and say, how do you— how would you treat our passengers? The general reply is, we treat them in the same way as we treat our own passengers. It's a difficult problem. We can't guarantee the same service levels as ourselves, our own. But we do try to make our passengers aware in advance as well that this will be a codeshare flight operated by this carrier, and day of departure is handled by that airline as well.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:So there's only a certain amount that you can do as a partner airline to control that.

Ross Leggett:And I think that, that probably has changed a lot in passenger perception. If we think back 20 years ago when you bought a codeshare, you expected the same service as the marketing carrier. Which now people are very aware that they, they buy a ticket on JAL, but they'll actually be travelling on American Airlines or another airline. They don't expect JAL service, they expect American Airlines service on that sector. That perception I think has changed a lot as well.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:Okay, so we are just about out of time here. Let's leave our audience with something to think about from each of you. What do you think is the biggest opportunity when it comes to what we've been discussing? So connectivity, partnerships, we're looking at the future of what the industry looks like, throwing in anything from technology to sustainability, which of course is something we haven't had time to, to consider today. But what is the single biggest opportunity?

Kamal Hingorani:So if I may suggest, one of the things that bothers us most is flight disruptions, which are happening every day for whatever reasons, internal or external, controllable, uncontrollable. And what the customer expects is that during flight disruption, they are communicated with and kept informed. It could be a flight delay, a cancellation, baggage, etc. And that's what, to my mind, Any airline, irrespective of the model, needs to focus on, use technology, use whatever means to make sure your customers are— the communication, and especially during a disruption, your customers are well informed. And that's when he comes back to you.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:Kamal, thank you. Ross?

Ross Leggett:The opportunity here is, I think, the journey experience will be a lot more streamlined and a lot easier as technologies improve. So that— looking forward to getting away from our traditional GDS models to new models that will be easier to buy, easier to sell, and much easier to travel on.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:Okay, technology. Ben?

Benyamin Ismail:Yeah, I think just to mirror what he said, I think technology is number one. It's very tough now in the world of aviation where everybody is on social media. Every one little mistake you do, every one lack of service, everything is posted all over social media.

Kamal Hingorani:Yeah.

Benyamin Ismail:I think for us is to be sure that we are fast to make decisions, we are fast to act on it, and we're fast to overcome it. So that's something that I think us as airlines have to make sure that we do that very efficiently as it is because social media One word can impact your brand tremendously in a very negative way.

Oriel Morrison-Higgins:Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So for anybody out there in the audience who's now thinking, well, we might change our jobs around and get into the technology side of the airline industry, take into account what Kamal said Bill Gates said about those technology jobs. You might not have it in 6 or 7 years. Stay where you are. All right, ladies and gentlemen, please put a hand— your hands together for our fabulous panel today.

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