Charting a Pragmatic Path: Asia's Aviation Sustainability Journey

Transcript

Richard Maslen:Now we've heard over the last couple of days a lot about airline growth and development, and that brings us on to a key topic of sustainability. How can we deliver growth in this area while ensuring we meet sustainability needs? Now, it's often discussed in this industry as a 2050 date. That's what we keep looking towards. But in Asia, the more immediate question is rather different. What can we actually deliver between now and then, and can we do it while continuing to grow the industry in what is the fastest-growing area of aviation in the world? Asia is going to be a key growth area for aviation, and it's also a region that has very different economies, regulatory environments, fuel resources, and consumer markets, and that makes a single sustainability formula unlikely. So I'm really pleased that we've got a good mix of people that we can have up on stage to talk about this. So please, if I can invite the panelists up to join me. So I have Kimberley from Boeing giving the OEM's view. Kimberley, thank you for joining us. Thank you. We have Nic from Cathay Pacific. Thanks, Nic. We have Noriko from Japan Airlines with the airline perspective there, and we have Jun from Taiyo Air giving, giving the industry impact on it. So where do we start? Well, it's such a big topic to cover. Right. You know, there's no shortage of ambition. We all talk— every business now, you have your sustainability guidelines, you have where you're working towards going. But it's hard to balance making the change while continuing to grow at such a hefty rate as the industry is. And also to do that in a marketplace which is volatile. Fuel prices are affecting how airlines are pricing. Can we put premiums on to support sustainability initiatives? So I think that leads us nicely to start off, Kimberley, to share your view on this. You know, from Boeing's perspective, how much of the industry's progress over the next decade is already achievable now with the technologies that we have? And how much of a change do we have now rather than thinking about the next generation of aircraft, which will— are still not even been formally confirmed as yet?

Kimberley Camrass:Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Richard, and good morning, everyone. There is a real ability to make sustainability improvements now whilst marrying obviously the objective of the sector for increased and ongoing commercial growth. The really key thing I'd like to emphasise about that though is that there's no silver bullet when it comes to sustainability. activity and results for aviation. In fact, collectively, we're all working really to utilise 5 key levers for sustainability progress, and that's obviously fleet renewal. But as you say, Richard, that takes time. Operational efficiency and air traffic management improvements are things that we can do now, and that the airlines, I'm sure, can talk to, to more about how we're collaborating in that, in that manner. We also have another 3 pillars, which include SAF, which I know we'll probably have quite a detailed discussion on Also market-based measures, they remain important in terms of CORSIA eligible emissions units. And finally, into the future, we will see advanced technology improvements. But we do have the tools that we need to start to make progress now and to continue to make progress now. And I think the key— 2 key pillars I'd like to emphasise there are operational efficiency and air traffic management, which can deliver meaningful improvements. Thank you. from a fuel reduction, cost reduction, and sustainability perspective. And secondly, when it comes to sustainable aviation fuel, we already have 9 approved pathways with additional 3 coprocessing pathways that we can drop into our existing aircraft up to a 50% blend. It doesn't require any change to airport infrastructure. It's a usable fuel and a drop-in fuel now. The challenge really currently when it comes to SAF is not necessarily one of technology, it's really one of economics. How do we introduce policy across the Asian region that means that we increase the use of these alternate fuels whilst not disadvantaging or disproportionately disadvantaging airlines and aviation as opposed to other sectors?

Richard Maslen:Yes, they're all areas obviously that we'll come on to in more detail through the discussion over the next 40 minutes. Nic, from your perspective, from the airline side, now obviously Cathay Pacific has a very big long-haul network serving a wide variety of markets. Of those things that Kimberley mentioned about what, you know, what are you seeing already as the key areas where you're able to make changes to the model to make environmental gains?

Nic Fong:Yeah, absolutely. And good morning, everyone. So glad to be here with all the professionals. So, reflecting to your questions, I think nowadays the technology-wise, the fleet modernisation will be the key point that can help us to decarbonise the airline emissions very effectively. So as you know, the new modern aircraft, they can reduce more than up to 25% of the emissions or fuel burn compared to the older aircraft. So I guess This way can help us to make a very good progress into that, at least a quarter of emission reduction journey already. So echo to Kim about the operational efficiencies. So we are also taking different kind of operation measures to help us to reduce the emissions, such as single-engine taxiing. When we just go around the airport, so it can help us to reduce emissions. And on the other hand, the new technology, of course, would be a future bullet that we can make use to help the aviation sector to decarbonise. But I guess nowadays, the most technological ready, that would be sustainable aviation fuel, at least in the transition period up until 2050, as the new aircraft by electric or by hydrogen would not appear so quickly as we expected, especially for us operating a lot of long-haul aircraft, that a big aircraft, that electric aircraft would be coming at a later stage. In this period, I think sustainable aviation fuel, as Kim rightly mentioned, that it is made by waste. And on technology side, we basically— every single waste can be turned into sustainable aviation fuel. So on that part, we see, at least in the short-term future, sustainable aviation fuel will be one of our major pillars to get into on the decarbonisation journey until 2050.

Richard Maslen:Okay, Noriko, we've just heard from your CEO. We're seeing the strategy that JAL is taking now. Sustainability is a key part of that business strategy you now have as an airline. You know, it's not just seen as an environmental program, it's seen as embedded within the business strategy. What does that change in practical terms when investment decisions are now being made?

Noriko Ogawa:Okay, thank you. Good morning, everyone. So as just Totori-san said now, so we position the sustainability as a core of our management and in our vision. We define our envisioned future as a sustainable well-being future, joyful connections between people that transcend regions, countries, and generations spread throughout society. We believe that by solving this social issue through our business, we will be chosen by the society while simultaneously giving rise to new growth opportunities. If we apply this philosophy to all management decisions, including investment, we can make essential decisions from a broader and long-term and social viewpoint, and it prevents us from falling into a short-sighted and narrow perspective. In other words, sustainability issues can be both risks and opportunities. For example, if decarbonisation is as an integral part of a business strategy. We can reduce jet fuel consumption and lower fuel cost by upgrading aircraft and refining flight operations, and adoption of SAF can diversify fuel supply resources. Also, early adoption of SAF and carbon credits allow transition towards a road operation business resilient to cost so that we secure first mover advantages.

Richard Maslen:Okay, interesting. Jun, from the fuel suppliers' perspective here now, what is the biggest disconnect today between what airlines want to buy and what the energy industry can realistically supply? Because there is a bottleneck there currently, isn't there?

Jun Shinmachi:Yes, well, good morning everyone. And yeah, the disconnect or the gap that needs to be bridged is pretty clear to me. With all due respect to my friends here in this room. It is the airlines' lukewarm willingness to pay up for carbon-neutral fuel versus the exorbitant price— well, exorbitant in the eyes of the airlines— that the producers would have to charge in order to recoup the investment costs to build a SAF plant. Now, I don't want you to get me wrong, but actually, I have no beef against the rational way the airlines are behaving, because I understand that it's the sworn duty for all of us to act and serve and act in the best interest of our shareholders. When fuel costs account for over 30% of the total operating expenses, does it really make any sense in the absence of any mandates or penalties to act out of righteousness and go out and start filling up your planes with expensive fuel, only to see your profit margins shrink and stock price tank, and drawing the ire of your shareholders, and eventually seeing yourself lose your job. So I kind of see this as a kind of a compositional fallacy, whereas every party on a micro basis would act in the best interests of themselves, rightfully so, but the sum total, when you do the math and add it all up, the collective results could be devastating or detrimental to the environment. So there's got to be, in addition to the rise in social awareness, there's got to be like a system in place to break through the standstill.

Richard Maslen:It's a challenge, and it's quite clearly for a business like airlines where profit margins are so small, you can understand why there is that concern about paying this additional cost. When it is such, but it is a business decision and it is an environmental decision that needs to be balanced. So it will be interesting how we see that develop over the world. Now, we've highlighted there that one of the key immediate levers in delivering, you know, sustainability initial targets is fleet renewal. The new generations of aircraft are so much more efficient than than previous generations. But Kimberley, we've just come out of, and we're still in the latter stages of a real supply chain crisis where availability of new aircraft has been a challenge. You know, all OEMs are struggling with this. You faced a number of issues with certification of new aircraft types and also engines being supplied, interiors of aircraft as well. Yes. You know, how important is it that Boeing can offer guarantees to airlines that these aircraft will be available, will be delivered within a timescale that they're expecting, so we can allow them to, to meet the targets they've set in place?

Kimberley Camrass:Thanks, Richard. It's absolutely critical, and obviously it's fair to say that Boeing and other OEMs have experienced challenges in this regard over recent years. As you mentioned, the new generation aircraft, the 737 MAX 8, for example, up to 20% more fuel efficient and reduces noise by up to 50%. So the numbers are clear, and we all know that fleet renewal is really the critical lever that we need to pull from a sustainability perspective. I think it's really also important, however, to consider what we do as a sector with the airlines that are— with the aircraft that are being replaced. There is a sustainability element to consider in terms of aircraft recycling where possible and what happens with those materials. So that's something that I think needs to come into a holistic consideration of sustainability, not just a consideration that's only focused on emissions reduction. To your question around supply chains, if— speaking quite frankly, if the OEMs don't improve the way that we deliver aircraft on time, and as committed to our airline customers, we are actually reducing their ability to, to reach emissions reduction goals. And in some cases, that means that airlines have to procure additional staff or pursue other decarbonisation options as well. So I think it's really critical, and, and I know Boeing has really put in a strong amount of effort over the last couple of years under our CEO, Kelly Ortberg. to make sure that that does improve, to rebuild trust with airlines, um, and with our, with our customers more broadly. And that's an effort that will take time, um, but it's certainly a commitment that, um, that has been made, and, uh, and a lot of effort is going into the delivery of that.

Richard Maslen:Okay, uh, Nic, Noriko, you've both mentioned previously a little bit about the, um, the fleet renewal and modern aircraft and how it's affecting things. So I'm gonna move Onto SAF. SAF is a big talking point. It is seen as a key opportunity for moving forward, but it's also, as Jun has already mentioned, it's costly. It's not something that airlines feel comfortable in terms of comfortably investing in it. Then there is also the question of who ultimately pays for these things. Should it be the airline? Yeah. Should there be mandates in place? Should it be the government that's supporting this in a certain way? Is that one within a country? Is it a regional opportunity? So it makes it more simplified. Jun, from your side, what is preventing us actually scaling up SAF so we can get it to a level that the price may start to reduce, but also that there's the availability of it for airlines to use?

Jun Shinmachi:Well, the to-be producers or the potential producers are saddled with a plethora of problems and it encompasses a wide range of things, technology and feedstock and most importantly the selling price. But the common thread to all these problems is the bottom line is economics, you see. The producers I think the airlines could only make the final investment decision when there is some confidence that the investments could be recouped, whereas from the airline standpoint, I think they would at least need some assurance that the extra amount they pay out for those carbon-neutral fuels could be rightly passed on to the ticket prices without— Yes. Jeopardising their standings in the competitive landscape. Now, I think it's pretty clear that the cost of achieving carbon-neutral airspace has to be spread across fairly and squarely across everyone. When I say everyone, I literally mean anyone, not just in a figurative sense, but everyone. Everyone, that would That would include me, you, and people in this room, and the Toyotas and Hondas, and even like Bill from Dunkin' Donuts, everybody. So there's got to be, and even those who would claim that I don't fly so I'm off the hook, not so fast because the, like the painkillers and the cough suppressants they pick up at the local drugstores, along with the digital toys, the iPhones and iPads and what, they're all airborne, you see. That makes them a beneficiary of a clean airspace. There's got to be an equitable system so that everybody defrays the fair share of the cost incurred, not only the airlines and the suppliers. Now, when it gets to that stage, it's really out of our hands. It's not something that the producers and the airlines can handle by themselves. That is where the government has to step in. and engineer an equitable system along with the rise in awareness of the public. I think that is the key.

Richard Maslen:Noriko, you're taking initiative at JAL to sort of really take a leading role in this and working with government and other industry partners to develop a domestic SAF supply chain. What have you learned about the difference between announcing your ambitions for SAF and actually getting the fuel on board your aircraft and using it?

Noriko Ogawa:Okay. We have announced the target of net-zero emission by 2050 and 10% SAF blend by 2030 back in 2020 to '21. which I think we are relatively early, but after that, organisations like One World Alliance and JCAB set the goal at similar levels. I think demonstrating ambition is crucial into creating momentum. Okay. And on the other hand, if ambition is not backed by action, the strong momentum we build could reverse. We have independently set the goal of 1% SAF blend of total fuel consumption for 2025, and we achieved it. We take pride in leading the adoption of SAF in Japan. Although we are not a SAF producer, we are proactively advocating for the importance of SAF across society to fill our responsibility as an end user. Specifically, we are tirelessly driving SAF awareness Through initiatives like partnering with local governments and supermarkets across Japan to collect used cooking oil from households to use as HEFA feedstock. This would also help build supply chain for the HEFA-based SAF production in Japan. My message here is ambition and execution must go hand in hand.

Richard Maslen:Nic, you've— looking at the Cathay Pacific side, you've, you've got corporate customers involved in contributing towards SAF. You've made big progress with that. But, you know, perhaps putting you on the spot a little bit with here, you know, who ultimately should be the one responsible for paying for this premium? Should it be you as the airline? Should it be the passenger on their ticket? Or maybe the corporate customer in terms of their contracts? Or the government?

Nic Fong:Yeah, very good question. So I guess May I just interpret this question? Because I would say the environmental impact or change belongs to everyone. So basically, if we need to improve it, enhance it, everyone has the responsibility. But of course, as an airline, because we operate the aircraft and we are the emission producer, so basically everyone will think that, oh, airline, you have the duty to settle it. But actually, we are providing a service to everyone travelling on us and also shipping the goods with us. So I guess in this point, for the whole value chain, actually, especially for SAF, because it's so expensive right now, 2 to 5 times compared to jet fuel. So just for everyone's information, but I guess you know very well, the jet fuel price nowadays Occupying around 30 to 40% of our take-up place. Talking about SAF, it will be 2 to 5 times more. It means that if we use SAF on a particular flight, then all ticket sales would be actually eliminated by the SAF usage. We call it commercially not viable. In that case, even though an airline would like to contribute FE of SAF, but We cannot do that, otherwise we will go bankrupt. So that's not the right thing to do. So I guess in reality, we really have to work with the whole value chain, no matter the SAF producer, the SAF provider, the jet fuel provider, the customers, as well as some CORPACs as well. Because I think CORPACs, they have more ambitious on the emission reduction because they have also the obligations or their own commitment to the public. I guess, in that side, I would suggest that everyone should take a part on this. How do we really scale up the SAF? Ultimately, the ultimate goal would be if SAF could be— the pricing could be very close to jet fuel, and also the availability would be similar to jet fuel in every single airport. We can use SAF to replace all the jet fuel. without any extra cost, that would be ultimate goal. But in between, I think everyone would have to play a part on this to scale up the SAF until it's the supply close to the jet fuel.

Richard Maslen:So it's quite clear the appetite to change is there. Everyone's willing to adopt this, but there's some fundamental barriers that still remain that make this a challenge for us.

Nic Fong:Economic.

Jun Shinmachi:Yeah.

Richard Maslen:So we've already got— thank you, those that have supplied some questions on Slido. Just a reminder that Slido is available. If you have anything you want to ask, we will spend some time going through those. So, Kimberley, from Boeing's perspective, you've been looking at potential SAF ecosystems across the Asia region. You know, what makes one country or market capable of becoming a genuine SAF production hub while another remains dependent on imports? You know, where are you seeing the most progress?

Kimberley Camrass:It's great to have a really in-depth discussion with people from across the value chain on SAF because it will be a collective effort to really scale this industry. And it's a great question, Richard. But just before I get to that, I just wanted to also add, when it comes to SAF, I really see 3 primary benefits for SAF production in domestic markets. Obviously, we've talked about emissions reduction, clearly, but fuel security and fuel supply chain diversification could be a really strong outcome for, you know, diversification of, of fuel across Asia, um, and to, to move towards a future where we have, uh, more smaller, uh, SAF, uh, or fuel production hubs. That really provides a strong opportunity, uh, for the region. And the, the third benefit of SAF is, of course, uh, industrial and economic growth that could come out of, of, of companies like Jun's and others, uh, really producing these alternate fuels. So when we look at how we pay for that, The cost sharing across those 3 factors needs to be considered. It's not only who pays for the emissions reduction, but it's how governments really should lean in to pay for the fuel security of their nations as well, for example. When we think about what we're seeing currently in Asia, there is significant movement. And what I think is really exciting is that Asia can look to what's happened in other parts of the world and really work to design policy that's economically rational, Mm-hmm. as well as driving, uh, seeking to drive SAF uptake. It's important that that policy does not, um, disproportionately disadvantage airlines or airline customers, and that it doesn't inhibit growth. And I would like to acknowledge Jal and ANA's really pragmatic approach, um, in, in that way as well. When we're— I think there's a variety of policies and, and areas of Asia that we can point to One that I'd like to quickly mention is the Singapore approach. And as many would be aware, Singapore's introduced a SAF levy. The thing that really excites me about that is whilst, yes, there is an additional charge, that charge is clear, it's transparently communicated, and it's applied equally across all of the airlines and all of the flights, with obviously that levy being differentiated according to cabin class and flight duration. But I think it provides a good example moving forward of how governments are trying to minimise the cost impact and certainly how they're trying to make that more equitably applied.

Richard Maslen:Okay. And Jun, we've got a question at the top here. You know, I was going to come on and ask you about Japan as a market for, you know, technological development in delivering sustainable frameworks. And becoming a key partner for the region. And we have a question here on what will be the key factors that will decide if Taiyo Oil will proceed with their project. Okinawa seems like a good central regional location for selling SAF. Will the SAF just be for domestic use, or are there plans to export to other countries in Asia? Perhaps you can just highlight what, what that's about and where you stand.

Jun Shinmachi:Yeah, well, Taiyo Oil's current business plan is to build a SAF plant plant in the island of Okinawa. As you may know, Okinawa is located right in the centre of Southeast Asia, and given its close proximity to mainland Japan as well as other Asian nations, our ambition is to build a SAF, another liquid fuel hub there, not just a self-sufficient SAF plant so that we could— You see, the thing about Whether demand creates supply or vice versa, that's an interesting conundrum, but I think that if there's assurance that there's a steady supply of SAF, then that could probably create demand. We are hoping to spearhead such an initiative in the Asian region. Well, the question about whether we will go ahead, well, we are actually huddling every day on that topic, but the factors that I— the key factors are the ones that I just mentioned, whether we have some confidence that by the time our plants are up and running, there's a market where we can sell a reasonable amount of our products at a reasonable price. It's really very hard to predict. So, yeah, but we are, yeah, we are moving ahead nevertheless.

Richard Maslen:You know, we talked a lot about SAF, so I think we should move on a little bit from that because we could quite easily talk for hours about the positives and negatives of where we're going with that. So, but fundamentally, it still remains expensive, it's still scarce. Boeing's next generation generation of aircraft that you have are delivering benefits. But as I said at the start, no decision has yet been made on a new aircraft program for the future that will deliver the real opportunities to sort of support sustainability drives. So what other factors are there for airlines to do today? So for Noriko, what are the operational measures that sound relatively small But collectively at JAL are beginning to real make a difference in terms of helping you to hit 2050 targets?

Noriko Ogawa:Okay, so, um, we are pursuing a wide range of initiatives across every stage of flight, from pre-departure preparation including flight planning, to taxiing, takeoff, cruising, descent, landing, and even ground operations. Under the title Gel Green Operation. In 2025, these efforts contributed to the reduction of approximately 250,000 tonnes of CO2. However, no single measure accounts for the overwhelming majority of these results. Internally, we quantify and track 41 distinct initiatives. And under our proprietary Divisional Profitability Management System— really difficult to say— where each division manages its own performance like independent businesses. So the results of these initiatives are directly reflected in each department's financial performance. So the strength of this approach lies in the broad involvement of employees, across multiple departments. Furthermore, by inviting passenger cooperation, like asking them to close the window shade, those things, we engage a wide range of stakeholders, successfully fostering momentum for the sustainability.

Richard Maslen:Nic, from Cathay's point of view, you're probably following similar— most airlines are following the same things. Is there anything else that you particularly think stands out that you're doing perhaps differently, or anything that you're particularly proud of that Cathay's delivering that's bringing small but positive steps towards environmental benefits?

Nic Fong:Yes, as we shared before, so we are doing operational improvement at all times. I guess all the airlines are doing this. One, to save fuel. The other is save the emission. So our single taxiing has has been running quite a long time already. So of course, it can help us to reduce some of the fuel use or emission, but actually, it's quite a minimal number. So talk about that first several cents could be achieved quite easily without any extra cost. But if you need to go further, say 1% more reduction, actually, there's limits. So on the operational side, I guess we are doing quite well already. We will keep improving it, but at the end of the day, I would say the new aircraft and also sustainable aviation fuel will be the key that we need to reach to that 2050 milestone.

Richard Maslen:Okay, let's pick up a couple of the questions here. I think, Kimberley, this one's probably slightly for you, but I don't think there's any answer that we can say. Do the panellists have any rough idea on how much more efficient next-generation aircraft and engines would need to be in order for net-zero targets to be achieved? Um, are you willing to, to give us a figure there, Kimberley, or—

Kimberley Camrass:Look, I don't think there is one figure that, um, would ensure that net-zero targets are achieved only through next-generation aircraft and engines. Um, obviously, we, we know that over time, aviation and the OEMs in particular have really improved the efficiency, and that will continue. I think it comes back to the point that the other panellists have made, though, that even with those improvements, that won't be enough. And so those other levers that we're pulling, sustainable aviation fuel, operational efficiency, and one that we haven't spoken about yet, which is carbon credits or CORSIA eligible emissions units, will continue to be really important. ICAO is doing a really great job of developing a robust monitoring and reporting towards net zero and to really track the, in granular detail, the contribution that each of those levers are playing. So I think that the short answer to that question is that aircraft and engines will play part of the role, and those improvements must continue. But we also need to create collectively an ecosystem where we enable those other levers to be pursued. When it comes to carbon credits and CORSIA eligible emissions units in particular, we're working with the industry There is a real bottleneck and a challenge about ensuring the availability of those currently as well. So I think it's a collective challenge across all of those 5 levers that will contribute to achieving that net zero target.

Richard Maslen:So talking about carbon credits there, Noriko, you know, JAL has moved into CORSIA-compliant carbon removals. You know, where do you see the carbon markets and removals fitting into this whole hierarchy of of savings, and particularly, when will that priority mean reducing emissions more at source?

Noriko Ogawa:Yeah, one second. Sorry, I'm looking for that. Yeah, carbon— sorry. CORSIA serves as a framework expanding the global aviation network through 2035 without increasing CO2 emissions under the concept of carbon-neutral growth. But as it's fundamentally a transition framework, in-sector emission reduction, namely fleet renewal, operational improvement, and the use of SAF remains a top priority. But to achieve net-zero emission by 2050, we recognise that residual emission must be neutralised and carbon dioxide removal will be indispensable. Consequently, we are investing in technology-based CDR startups and DAC and DOC stuff. The supply will be expected to scale up and become most cost-effective in the future. In order to comply with CORSIA in near term while diversifying our credit portfolio, we proactively became a world-first airline to utilise portfolio Okay,

Richard Maslen:so let's, you know, we've spoken about a lot of things here. Bringing it back to the whole commercial reality of where we are, you know, if sustainability adds materially to the cost of operating an airline, how do you prevent decarbonisation from becoming a competitive disadvantage for the airlines that move first? You know, we're hearing, particularly Cathay as well, you are making progress with this. Other airlines are perhaps a lot slower, which is adding significantly to their costs. significant costs to your operation when others are not facing the same problems. You know, how do you incorporate that? And then I think maybe what are you seeing, both Noriko and Nic, from the passenger perspective? Are passengers willing? They talk a good game and they say, I want to be sustainable and I'm happy to do this. We all know previously where you had a little box on your website of tick here. Yeah. to offset your travel. We know that less than 5% of people actually click that box, although if you ask them, 80% of people said that yes, they would when it came to it. So, you know, are people willing to pay for this, or is the responsibility further up the value chain, like with yourselves and those higher up? So, Nic, can I start with your views on that?

Nic Fong:Yes. Obviously, everyone would like to do the good things. But in terms of contribution, it comes to some hesitation for some people because of the extra cost. But I guess the message here is how do you communicate with your customers? What we are taking approach is we start from small. So we, as Cathay, we start doing 10% SAF on our own daily travel. So we would like to be a role model to the corporate and also to the individual customers. Thank you. So nowadays we are having our own, the SAF options for the customers to purchase after their booking in the website. So in the near future, we will also introduce the in-booking for SAF option as well. But what we're trying to do is that maybe we start from 1% and then deliver a message to the customers and say, oh, what is SAF? What is important? Yeah. for aviation decarbonisation. And it's not only for airlines, but for everyone, passengers, cargo customers, everyone actually is involved. So by this example, we hopefully deliver the message that SAF is important and is affordable for at least the energy transition period until the electric aircraft is coming. So I guess it would be the main key message from us. Okay.

Richard Maslen:Okay, so we're running really short of time here, so I'd just like to sort of finish off with just really quick answers. You've got 30 seconds each at most. Okay, I'm putting the pressure on you here. If we were going to meet again in 5 years, you know, let's give a bit of time for development. What is the one measure that you'd like to be able to point to and say, that's where Asia has really changed the economics of sustainable aviation? I think the one thing that we're really looking at is the And I'm not looking from a global point of view, looking purely just within, within Asia. So Kimberley first.

Kimberley Camrass:Harmonised, not identical, but harmonised SAF policy across the region that has reduced the cost differential, driven private investment to projects such as JUN's, and really increased SAF uptake and use across the region.

Richard Maslen:Nic?

Nic Fong:Yeah, I would say customer's choice. So if 5 years later on the customers would really go for airlines with the sustainability performance other than a cost-effective, I mean, on-cost airline. So they would like to pay a little bit more on a premium on the sustainability performance for airline. That would be the, I would say, the most important intake for an airline.

Richard Maslen:There we go.

Noriko Ogawa:Yep. So this was a privilege of sharing my thoughts and significance of ambitious goals and importance of the execution of achieving them, and above all, the critical need for the collaboration across diverse regions. It was equally inspiring to hear my fellow panelists today. If these shared insights resonate with everyone here and inspire concrete action, that will be our chance to promote throughout the region.

Richard Maslen:Jun, we have 1 second, so I still need to get there.

Jun Shinmachi:Go on. Hopefully, I would like to be able to look back and say 2026, '27 was the tipping point. That was when the policymakers stopped the occasion and engineered and instituted an equitable, well-crafted, intricate system to spread the cost of carbon-neutral fuel to all the beneficiaries. That is when the industry— that was when the tide shifted and that was when the industry took off. Most importantly, I would want to be able look back and say, thank God our capital expenditure hasn't morphed into capital punishment.

Richard Maslen:And on that note, thank you very much, Jun. So thank you. We're, we're out of time now. Obviously we could talk for a whole event about sustainability in aviation, but can I have a round of applause for my panelists, please?

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