Infrastructure Development: Building the Future of Aviation in Latin America

Transcript

Rafael Echevarne:Good morning, everyone. My name is Rafael Echevarne. I am the Director General of ACI Latin America and the Caribbean. For those of you who are not familiar with ACI, ACI is the International Airport Association. It is the only organization of its kind in the world that brings together all the airports, and we are the official voice of the airport industry in front of ICAO. With me here today, I have Ramesh Gere, who is the CEO of Cheddi Jagan Airport in Guyana, in Georgetown, Guyana. I have also Javier García Abejos, who is the CEO of AAME, Aeropuertos Mexicanos, and our good friend Ramon Miro, who is the CEO of Quiport, The airport— the company that runs Quito Airport in Ecuador. Please take a seat. And what we are going to do is basically I'm going to give you an overview of the situation with airports in this part of the world because it's actually quite unique. And I take it that many of you come from the US, and of course the situation in Latin America is a bit different from the US. Actually, the US is actually a special case.

Ramon Miro:Yes.

Rafael Echevarne:In the worldwide scene when it comes to airports. Sorry? Okay. All right. Basically, what is special about Latin America and the Caribbean when it comes to airports is the fact that the private sector is very heavily involved in the development and the operation of airports. As a matter of fact, Latin America and the Caribbean, together with Europe, are the regions in the world with the highest proportion of airports run by the private sector. Not all of the airports, of course, are run by the private sector. ACI, as this international organization, is not basically saying that the airport should be run by the private sector. Not at all. As a matter of fact, the greatest majority of our airports are actually public airports, but it is a fact that in some regions of the world, the private sector plays a major role. One of the reasons is because it was a philosophical decision in some countries where they thought that rather than the airport, than the government actually investing in these facilities, in these key infrastructures, they thought that the private sector actually could do that and the government could devote their attention to other aspects of— —of the economy. of government. Now, around the world today, we have 920 airports— that was my latest count— 920 airports that actually have some form of private sector participation. In Latin America and the Caribbean, we have 235 airports that actually are run by the private sector. Now, of these airports, these 235 airports actually handle 90% of the passenger traffic in Latin America. So as I say, the great majority of passengers are handled by airports in the private sector. There are some major airports that still are publicly run, for example, Mexico City, for example, Panama, for example, Guatemala, for example, in the case of Venezuela. But those are special cases, as you can see, in the region. Now, in Europe, we have more than 235 airports. Airports in the private sector, but as a percentage of passengers, it is much less. Now, one of— as I was saying, one of the reasons why the governments in Latin America thought of the private sector was because of the huge amounts of investments required in the development of these key infrastructures. Between 2021 and 2040, in a study that we did in 2019, we actually calculated that about $94 billion were required in our region, in Latin America and Caribbean, for new airport developments, for CAPEX, major CAPEX developments. Of these, $41 billion were devoted to greenfield airports. Right now, at this very moment, we are doing another study to really evaluate what are those needs, and I can tell you that that figure is going to be probably surpassed. Right now, we have a number of airports. We have— I was actually doing We have at least 6 brand new facilities being built in the region, and we have over 15 major projects going on in airports throughout the region, on top of existing airports that actually are expanding their facilities. For example, in the case of Panama, it has been announced that there will be an extension of Tocumen Airport to accommodate the growing demand.

Javier García Bajos:Thank you.

Rafael Echevarne:The rise in traffic. Panama, as you probably know, is one of the airports, one of the countries that is growing the most, thanks to the great work that COPA is doing. Now, in terms of traffic, Latin America, of course, cannot compare to, say, North America or Europe. We handled in 2025 approximately 795 million passengers, which represents approximately 4.5% of the world's passenger traffic. However, the potential for growth is tremendous. I'm very happy that we had the panel before on the Caribbean because one of the things that we are missing in Latin America is the development, the takeoff of regional traffic. Most of the traffic right now in Latin America and Caribbean is between capital cities. There is very, very little regional traffic. We are at this very moment doing a study on looking at connectivity and the challenges that regional aviation has in the region. Basically, that's what I wanted to talk about, to give you that overall perspective. The fact that, as I say, the private sector plays a major role. What I would like to do now is just hand over the mic to— let's start with you, with Ramesh. Tell us more about your airport in Guyana, because probably many of you don't really have Guyana on top of your minds, but pay attention to this because Guyana is doing some— something very, very interesting is happening in Guyana. Go ahead.

Ramesh Ghir:Good morning. Thank you, Rafael, and let me thank CAPA for accommodating us here today. As you pointed out, Guyana is really experiencing an economic boom. Our minister yesterday outlined some of the numbers that we have had. We've been seeing double-digit GDP growth, as high as 62% over the last 5 years. This year, we're projected to grow by another 16%. The interesting thing about Guyana is that we are not only growing in the oil and gas sector. Our non-oil economy is also growing double-digit, and this is really testimony to government's commitment to diversifying the economy. For those of you who are not familiar with the country, we're the top of South America, the only English-speaking country, but we're also blessed with 85% of the country is covered with forests, so there's huge opportunity in the agricultural sector, and we've been capitalizing on that. There was a recent study that came out that says Ghana is the only country in the world that can feed itself in terms of the produce that we have in the country. We are public-owned. The Cheddi Janga International Airport is a government-owned airport. But I want to point out, we are not averse to public-private partnership. As a matter of fact, we have another international airport, the Ogle International Airport, which is owned by the private sector and operated by the private sector. That airport moves over 100 flights per day. It's one of the busiest airports in the entire region. We are developing several new aerodromes. The country, as I said, is 85% forest, so we have a lot of what we call domestic airstrips. Over 35 of them are being developed at the moment, rehabilitated. We're building out 2 new greenfield airports. That will serve the region. At the Cherry Jagan Airport, we have just completed an airport expansion where we extended the main runway. Given the growth trajectory that we have experienced in the past 5 years, I spoke about the GDP just now, but the—

Javier García Bajos:GDP.

Ramesh Ghir:Passenger movement also has been growing double-digit. We've increased passenger movement by over 400% in the last 5 years. This year, we're growing at 12% so far. We envisage there's going to be need for more capacity. Now, we have started construction on a second terminal, 180,000 square meters. It's going to be larger than the existing facility that we have. There are several other capital works taking place at the airport in anticipation of the continued growth. We have taken a decision to relocate our existing control tower so that we could create space for additional aircraft parking position and boarding bridges. Rafael, I'll stop there for now.

Rafael Echevarne:Okay, very good. Thank you very much. Maybe we can now turn to Ramon. Ramon actually manages Quito Airport, which, as I said, Also, the private sector is heavily involved there. Can you tell us about what's happening in Quito, what have you done, and about your management model, because I think it's quite interesting?

Ramon Miro:Thank you, Rafael. Before this, thank you to CAPA for the invitation, for the great conference, and it's a pleasure to be amongst friends, colleagues here. Mariscal Sucre International Airport is the capital city airport in Quito, Ecuador. It's PPP by definition, right? It's actually a fascinating project, and I'll try to be very brief in that it's a 35-year concession. Initially, it entailed the takeover of the old Mariscal Sucre in downtown Quito at 2,800 meters above sea level while we designed, built, financed, and then opened the new airport in 2013, right? So we've been operating for 13 and a half years. 100% of the financing, CapEx investment, etc., is done by the private party, by my shareholders. I think it's an example. I'm a big advocate of private involvement, à la PPP, I insist. We've spent over $1.2 billion at this greenfield. We are, I'd argue, perhaps the number one source of Job creation in the country. In Ecuador, by the way, I'm not Ecuadorian, but it's a beautiful country, but it's very much an emerging market. The job creators, the connectivity, the concept of branding Quito, branding Ecuador abroad is very important and near and dear to our hearts. I believe that my team, and I take a step back, has done a fantastic job.

Javier García Bajos:Thank you.

Ramon Miro:serving that purpose. It's a Skytrax 5-star airport, ACI ACA 4+ level. We're carbon neutral. We are ACI customer experience level 5. We're actually very proud of the fact that a few years ago, it was only Incheon and us. Today, there are a few more airports in the world. We're 100% focused on connectivity, the quality of aviation, job creation, and again, this concept of At the end of the day, we're ambassadors of the country and we're going to do a good job supporting the government, supporting the municipality in every way, shape, and form that we can. That's philosophically near and dear to our heart. I'll stop there.

Rafael Echevarne:Because you mentioned the municipality, can you tell us about that? Because that's quite unique in the case of Ecuador.

Ramon Miro:Yeah, it's interesting. The Ecuadorian government, a little over 20 years ago, decided that Whereas at that point in time, civil aviation basically controlled all the airports. It actually granted authority to 4 municipalities, right, where they could take on this process of concessioning. I was going to say privatization, but it's really not a privatization because the asset reverts back to the municipality at the end of the concession. And so 2 of the key airports that you may be familiar with that are under this modality Yes, thank you very much.

Rafael Echevarne:Now, Mexico was the first country in Latin America that really went for the private sector participation in the development of airports. You probably have heard of ASUR, you've probably heard of GAP and OMA. They run a network of airports centered around Guadalajara, Cancún, and Monterrey. They are actually listed on the New York Stock Exchange. Listed in the stock exchange in Mexico and also in New York. So we're all familiar with that, but you probably don't know that much about AME, Aeropuertos Mexicanos. And here we have Javier García-Bejos, who is actually the CEO. And Javier, tell us, you know, how did you end up getting involved in the development of these airports that we visited a month ago? Tell us more about your company, please.

Javier García Bajos:Thank you, Rafa. Good morning to all. Thank you to CAPA. It's nice to be here, and it's a good opportunity to share what is happening somehow in Mexico because airport ecosystem has been changing a lot during the last years. Somehow 30 years ago, the privatization of many airports was the model that moved investment and development into many airports in our country. But then 8 years ago came another round of definitions on some airports in Mexico City, new airport, AIFA, or in Benito Juárez or Tulum Airport, and they are public-invested and owned. But suddenly, the government run out of money to solve some problems that hit the infrastructure of touristic cities in the country. Those 2 airports, Tepic Riviera, Nayarit, and Puerto Escondido, then were awarded in this mixed model in which ASA, the national company for airports, put the concession in a public and private company in which we have a— A stake. We are part of the shareholders with the government, and we infuse money and invest in the new terminals and the runways and to solve the lack of infrastructure of those projects or those airports that they were not greenfields. They were operational somehow because they didn't have a proper runway or control tower or terminal, of course. But suddenly we find this way to put risk, everyone's risk in a good shape, to align incentives and to invest in this program in which we have been investing around $500 million in terminals, runways, and improvements with one condition that was interesting at that moment. For the first time, the vision of the government, the government put on the table and in the market 2 products, the AIFA and Tulum, as big projects with too much money, with many public investment there. So when they asked us to be their partners, they asked me too to develop a bigger port and to stay away from the model of congestion and lack of infrastructure that is part of what is currently happening in Mexican airports. So this public-private model aligned all the shareholders' vision into a long-run planning system and in a business plan in which the government doesn't take any kind of decision that may hurt the investment that we are doing. So it's important to say that this new model, this mixed model, that it was intended 25 years ago in Toluca Airport, Mexico's alternative airport. But at that time, Toluca, and until now, has not been a good example of public and private investment. Because they didn't define well the shareholders' agreements and the way in the governance of the company. Investment decisions, commercial decisions, business plan decisions never has been able to fulfill the possibilities of the airport. Here, we avoid that problem starting with a nice shareholder agreement. agreement with a 50-year plan for the airports because these destinations, you know, in Puerto Escondido, we passed from 300,000 passengers yearly to 1.4 million this year. And in Riviera Nayarit, there were not even 30,000 passengers yearly, and we are going to reach this year Half a million. So we are improving. We have a public-private new idea or a new possibility that allows us to invest and to bring into the smaller ports in Mexico regional development in a concept in which we are trying to build world-class terminals for the experience of the passenger and as a gateway for the Beautiful destinations are Puerto Escondido and Riviera Nayarit.

Rafael Echevarne:Because the model that you are developing in Mexico, I think, is very interesting because it's quite unique. It's not the traditional concession model that perhaps we could actually put Quito in, despite the fact that, of course, Quito was a greenfield and it was a major investment. This opens up the possibility for many other airports that we could consider them to be on the secondary or the regional type, To really look at the possibility of bringing the private sector in, which is in some places very, very necessary. I'm thinking, for example, of some of the smaller islands in the Caribbean, which are struggling to do that. If there is one thing that is true is that, of course, the private sector can bring the expertise that sometimes is missing. Are you, as AIME, looking at the possibility of exploring opportunities in other parts of the region? For example, in Panama, the government is interested in the regional airports to be handed over to the private sector. Are you looking at things outside Mexico?

Javier García Bajos:Yes, Rafa, because we believe that what is happening mainly in Latin America is that we are solving the investment problems in the big hubs. If you look at Lima and Quito and El Dorado and Guarulhos, Everywhere, and Mexico City even with this mix of investments in AIFA and in Benito Juárez. The hub problem investment is moving forward in Latin America. We have now bigger airports, more capacity, and we are trying to solve that. The problem is that regional airports, the ones that are currently moving people are not in the same shape.

Ramon Miro:Mm-hmm.

Javier García Bajos:There's a lack of infrastructure and a lack of vision and planning in those kind of airports. We believe there is a strong opportunity to move forward to this model, as we are trying to do in Riviera Nayarit and in Puerto Escondido, to bring world-class terminals and world-class experience to passengers than ends and starts their travel in these destination airports. And we believe that there is too much to be done, and there is a huge business there waiting for a better view and a better approach to take this as a serious business in the market. We believe there is a huge opportunity, and it's a Truly a need for Latin American secondary airports. They need not to be the invisible airports network in which you are not investing, you are not putting money, you are not adding up capacity. We need to put those airports in the first row of the planning of— because it will change everything, change development and mobility for many reasons, but for the good one in airport industry.

Rafael Echevarne:Go ahead, Ramon.

Ramon Miro:No, no, I just wanted to say, I think it's fascinating really what's happening here, because for example, Mexico, as you said, is an example of the 3 giant groups initially. Argentina concessioned at about the same time. We actually now have ownership by one of the 3 Mexican giants, Azur, and I have some colleagues here there. But this is— I just want to vouch for ACI. I think ACI does a fantastic job in terms of being an information and experience hub in terms of best practices, learnings, learnings from mistakes, etc. It's interesting, here we are, I mean, 2 folks that are more on the private side, but we're partners with the public. Guyana is one of the great growth stories and it's fascinating to see, and I wish Ramesh and the country the best going forward. But I insist on the fact that there are a lot of learnings, there are a lot of experiences to be shared. As Javier was just saying, I agree 100% that a lot of these regional, secondary, tertiary airports are so important in Latin America. I use the term diplomatically emerging markets, but these are resource-constrained governments. There's a lot of interest by privates to come in to partner with the government, To help and to get involved in these types of developments. Then just the last thing, the previous panel, fascinating. Love the Caribbean. A lot of attacks in terms of tariffs and fees. I think that's also a conversation that we need to have with the airlines. We need to sit down so you understand exactly what we do with those fees, with whatever portion of them we get, and the rationale behind them, because we're reasonable partners. I don't think just attacking without the context is necessarily optimal in terms of being able to move forward and grow.

Rafael Echevarne:Definitely. We have our own big event at the end of this month, and we will be talking about that in Lima, but I just want to send this message. The airports do not capriciously come up with a charge. It is actually— government is one of the most heavily regulated Now, Ramesh, Javier was talking about all these tourism developments in Mexico.

Ramesh Ghir:Yes.

Rafael Echevarne:Of course, Mexico is very well positioned as a tourist destination. I mean, we don't have to convince anyone about that. It is there. It is fantastic. Now, you, in the case of Guyana, of course, the money may be there from the government. I mean, you have— you're blessed with all this oil, but of course, you have to develop all that infrastructure, all that tourism infrastructure. You are telling me some Very interesting things before about that.

Ramesh Ghir:Thank you. Maybe just to put into perspective, I know a lot of people think that there's enough oil money. There's not enough. It's only 40% of our annual budget, so government do have to find other ways of funding the projects that we have in country. I know sometimes when we talk about infrastructure and infrastructure development at the airport, we tend to focus on what is at the airport. Airport, but it goes deeper than that. We are fortunate in that our president, President Irfan Ali, he was the Minister of Tourism, so he's very attuned and up to date with what is required for that passenger experience. He's made it very clear that he wants us to own that passenger experience. When we are working with the airlines, we're not asking them to just come, We are working with them through the journey to ensure there's enough passenger movement, there's enough interest there to grow the market. In this regard, for example, in the last 5 years, we have built over 15 new hotels in Guyana. That is creating the space for tourism industry. The government has also invested heavily in hospitals, 6 new regional hospitals. The reason we are doing that is not only to serve our own people at home, but we are going into medical tourism. The entire region is going to come to Guyana if they want to do the dental or any major medical. In addition to that, we've just completed 2 new stadiums. Sports tourism is big on our agenda. I'm saying this because it's not just about the airport and what we're building out to the airport. Government also commits to the infrastructure in-country, the roadways, moving people. I said we are 85% forest. We're now doing a lot of road networks within that so that it's cheaper, it's fast, and easy for persons to get access to our true tourism product, which is eco-adventure tourism. To come back a bit to the airport, there are a lot of things that happens at the airport that does not necessarily come out. Apart from building out the infrastructure, the use of technology to aid the passenger experience is critical. Recently, we have just installed electronic gates so passengers arriving can be processed quickly. We have moved from the customs area where you will go through and have your bags screened. They are now done Outside, it comes from the aircraft screen before it gets into customs. Once you pick up your bag in customs, you're basically ready to exit the terminal building. The other aspect we're looking at, we know that it's critical for the airlines, for those of the carriers that carry belly cargo, for example, it's critical. As I said before, we're big in agriculture. We're Currently constructing a huge cargo facility at the airport with cold storage facility. This will aid for fresh produce and perishable goods moving through the airport. All in all, the government, and like I said, we are really— for example, the 2 airports that we are building, we have asked for proposal when it's been submitted. for those contractors to also bring financing with them. We're still attuned. It's just that we want, at the moment, to control that passenger experience. One last thing I'll say, because when government is controlling that process to some extent, we made a lot of decisions. For example, we decided to change our immigration form. We're reducing it. We've made it electronic. A number of the checks that we've had in the past where we had Port Health and Immigration and Customs being at the door of the aircraft and having to collect that, we've basically removed those. When government is controlling the process and they're forward-thinking, you could make that decision quite easily to say, look, let us make these changes to help our passengers. Thank you.

Rafael Echevarne:You really mentioned something very important, the passenger experience. And as you say, in your case, it probably is easier because it is government-owned. And I just wanted to pass on to you too the challenges that many airports have in convincing governments about the implementation of all this technology. In Mexico, for example, I'm very pleased to see that now you can enter the country without having to talk to the immigration officer, but still you have many other points of contact.

Ramesh Ghir:Yes.

Rafael Echevarne:Can you tell us about the challenges that you have as airport operators in convincing governments of the importance of being on board to ensure that that passenger experience is there? Because there is nothing worse than killing the whole expectation of a tourist when you land and you know that you have to spend 2 hours, as was the case this summer in Europe with the implementation of the new system where— I don't know how they came up with that, but anyway. Can you tell us about the challenges that you have?

Javier García Bajos:It's crazy that when you think—

Rafael Echevarne:me and, for example, you, Javier.

Javier García Bajos:It's crazy when you think that in Mexico is visited by more than 45 million people each year. You must think that our airports are good for tourists and a nice passenger experience, nice open doors for the Unfortunately, there has been a lack of planning in terms of technology and in terms of customer service in touristic airports in Mexico. Despite that, there has been a lot of investment in Cancún and many others. Vallarta is now doing very well, and Los Cabos and all that. What you see in all those airports is that there is no connection between what is planned by the private sector and what the government thinks about technology or what is happening with— thanks God, with the World Cup issue during last summer, Mexican government start thinking on how to get into the country because we were facing a lot of—

Ramesh Ghir:Security.

Javier García Bajos:Constraint problems in customs, migration, and all that. Suddenly, there is an open table now built with the concessionaries, private sector in the airports, and also the government trying to search and trying to decide on how to plan for that technology that changed the experience of—

Ramesh Ghir:Yes.

Javier García Bajos:of passengers and of course bring a safe operation to all the terminals. But it's important to say that it's amazing that we are talking just about this in a country that is visited by almost 50 million people. So that challenge is important for the industry and just—

Rafael Echevarne:Yeah.

Javier García Bajos:These are all in big airports like Cancún and Cabo. They have a lot of services, infrastructure, and all that. But the major challenge comes when you are going down in terms of passengers and you have lack of infrastructure in every sense, in every single terminal. And suddenly you have a problem because the market has been changing a lot. Viva Aerobus is now flying everywhere in the country with 240-seat A321s. So when you get into the small airport, regional airport with 240 people in the same plane, you don't have any infrastructure or capabilities to process those passengers and improve their experience. So there's a lot of challenges, but technology is the right way to move forward.

Rafael Echevarne:It's interesting because in the previous panel on the Caribbean, It is quite amazing to see that some islands want to position themselves as hubs, and yet you are forcing the passengers to enter the country before you can actually change planes. Obviously, that is something that we have to teach governments, that those changes are necessary.

Ramesh Ghir:Yes.

Rafael Echevarne:Now, Ramon, tell us about the technology because you really are an outstanding example of an airport that really uses technology, and also tell us about cargo as we We are coming to the end of the session. Cargo, of course, is very important in your airport.

Ramon Miro:Thank you. Thank you for the kind words. I love you too. No, no, we— I mean, it's funny because it's a follow-on to this. I mean, technology to us is a competitive advantage. It's a fundamental positive factor in terms of the overall customer experience. So we've been very pro-biometrics. the sharing of data with our duty-free operator, our food and beverage operator, etc. And thank goodness, the results have been quite positive. But just to comment on that front, you know, I think it's wonderful to hear Ramesh speak of how quickly his government can decide, make the right decisions, etc. The experience I've lived, and not that I want to be negative in terms of government, but sometimes They're just much more constrained because of public procurement laws, etc. And that's where I insist that a dialogue and the learnings, right, that we should share in terms of how best to work with the government. Javier's examples are great. You know, there's giants like Cancún, but there's secondary and tertiary airports that have much smaller traffic growth, and the government just can't make those investments. The idea of how they partner with privates in terms of helping that overall experience is, I think, key to moving forward and to therefore having a better experience. Sorry, I went off on a tangent. Technology for us, fundamental. We've done some wonderful development, and I have a great director of technology and innovation. Then in terms of cargo, Thank goodness we're blessed with a very large rose business, flower business. What that's done is around the exportation of flowers, we've invested quite a bit of money and there's a huge wave of additional investment that's coming in 2027 to continue to grow in that area. We have issues again with government in terms of e-commerce. And what have you, but again, that's part of the dialogue that we need to resolve collectively. We're the 4th largest air cargo airport in Latin America. We move over 410,000 tons a year, and hopefully we'll continue to grow there.

Rafael Echevarne:Okay, so we are coming to the end. Is there anything else that any of you in the panel would like to share with the audience, or shall we open the floor to any questions they may have? Any questions? Okay. Well, okay, please go ahead. I cannot see you. Oh, okay. Oh, I see. Regarding the TUA in Lima, they're charging for a connection. Defensible on infrastructure or just a tariff program? Okay. Well, that's actually— that is a very good question. They are asking about the Connecting fee at Lima Airport. Lima Airport just recently introduced a connection fee for passengers changing from international to international, and there has been a huge hoo-ha about that. What I can say to you as ACI is the fact that the airport has implemented the charge because they have the right to do so according to the concession contract, and actually the fee It's not established by the airport. It's actually established by the regulator. So that is all I have to say. And I would say to you, come over to Lima at the end of the month to actually, you know, join the discussion on this. I can tell you that, that they are doing what they are allowed to do according to the concession contract. And just to give you an idea, you know, $6 is what they are charging now for that connecting fee. But if you want to choose the seat to travel next to your grandmother from Lima to Miami, the cost is at least $40. That's to keep things in perspective. Anything else? Just want to say thank you very much. Did you have anything to say? Go ahead.

Ramon Miro:I just wanted to comment on that issue. Again, as a private investor in airports, The Lima issue's been very— it's been a hot topic, to put it diplomatically. What I'd argue is that these people made, I believe it's an over $2 billion investment.

Rafael Echevarne:That's right.

Ramon Miro:This was agreed to previously. It was known, right? There's a question of, is it defensible? It's not an invention of LATAM. It was agreed to years ago before they took on the investment. Having said that, you know, I know the LAP CEO and Chief Commercial Officer. They're good, reasonable people, as I think we all are, those of us in the private space, but it's a matter of sitting down and having a good discussion, because with an airline, at the end of the day, it has to be win-win. So I just want to emphasize that point.

Rafael Echevarne:Definitely, definitely. As I say, it's not something that you just come up with. It is part of your concession, and you're actually covering the cost of providing a service. an infrastructure and a service. So anyway, thank you very much for your participation. Thank you very much for the questions. We'll be here for a while, and thank you.

Ramon Miro:Thank you.

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