Asia Pacific sustainability initiatives are finally taking off, but will they be enough?

Transcript

David Wills:The great panel we've got today, Lee Hudson, who's the Head of Carbon Markets at International Airlines Group. We've got Eileen Isidro, who's the Vice President for Corporate Strategy and Risk Officer at Cebu Pacific. We have Aline Berger, who's the APAC SAF and Sustainability Officer for Airbus. And down the far end, Fabrice Espinosa, who's the founder and CEO of Asia SAF Association. So thank you guys for joining. Just to maybe get started, and maybe Fabrice, you can have the first, first word on it. At a relatively high level, the industry is committed to net zero 2050, or at least most airlines have. If we look ahead in the 25 to 20 or 25 to 30 horizon, what does that look like to you? What, what are the— what do you think are going to be the key achievements, the key challenges, the key priorities during that time that's going to propel the industry towards net zero?

Fabrice Espinosa:Thank you very much for the question, and good afternoon everybody. Hope, uh, You had a good session so far. I don't have a crystal ball, but I have strong beliefs though, and our members as well. To decarbonize aviation, we don't have that many pillars. We have several though, and I'm sure my colleagues will mention that. But we have different, let's say, international organizations that are recognizing the importance of sustainable aviation. I think we have a question from the audience. sustainable aviation fuels as one of the key levers for decarbonizing our industry. We can talk about 50% to 70% of the contribution by 2050. And 2050, if I'm not wrong, it's about 25 years away from us, right? So I should be in the right range. So basically, yeah, what else? We have to focus into that kind of transition, not transition. I don't know. I'm not here to say. But at least this is a concrete example of what's achievable and what's accessible today in terms of aviation decarbonisation. We have some challenges, and I'm sure we're going to see that and talk about it later. But the technology is quite mature for some of them. You have availability in some of them. You have more than 1 million tonnes availability in Singapore, for instance. And policies around, around the world and in the region in particular are rising more and more. We need to ensure that it's affordable. And again, we're going to come to it, but I think In terms of decarbonization efforts, sorry, we believe that this is one key tool for the industry to decarbonize.

Hélène Burger:Yeah.

David Wills:Eileen, from an Airbus perspective, what do you see as the key for the next 5 years for the industry?

Hélène Burger:For the next 5 years?

David Wills:Well, up to 2030, I suppose, with a view of roaring on to 2050 beyond that.

Hélène Burger:Well, we're a very long-cycle industry. So first, of course, as an OEM, we believe aircraft improvement is essential. We are current aircraft. I'm not going to try to sell you anything, but they are effectively more efficient in terms of fuel burn, which is a win-win situation for the airlines in terms of economics, but also for the CO2 emission. And we are committed to always improve that. And that is an ongoing process. And of course, there are the STEP technologies. But if you talk 5 years, it will take more, more time. So which means we need sustainable aviation fuel now and in the long term. So if we think short term, I mean, 5 years, what we need is to get this market to kickstart. It's very nascent, very promising development. But we need more. We need more SAF. We need more affordable SAF. So that you can afford to pay for it. You mentioned it, it's not a lack of willingness, but the economics need to work for everybody in the end. So what we do as Airbus is we try to work with the authorities so that you get the policies that can help you to offtake SAF at a reasonable price. And we also work a lot with SAF producers because we believe we can drive the prices down. And so we invest in some projects, we accompany some projects to improve the technologies, develop new feedstock to offer you as airlines more opportunities to invest. SAF is a must. And when we look at the Asia-Pacific region, there is very large potential in terms of feedstock here. Not just the EFA. I'm sure you're familiar with the different technologies, but the common EFA project technology. There is lots of projects popping up in Asia, and that's very promising. But when we look at Asia Pacific, we need to look at the next technology. That's what we focus on when it comes to pushing for, for SAF supply side. And I guess we'll talk also about the demand side that we need to develop together, the voluntary market, so that you as airlines get the opportunity to, to balance your financials in the end.

David Wills:Yeah, okay, great. Now, Eileen, your airline is based in a slightly different socioeconomic, political, regulatory environment to certainly the IAG airline. So what different challenges or priorities do you guys see for the next 5 years?

Aileen Isidro (Mac):Well, for now, we can actually— we're hyper-focusing sort of with the fuel efficiency that's available already. So we are actually 72% neo for our jets already. And mainly for— that's something that we can do immediately. From a next 5 years perspective, of course, we're considering SAF. We're actually speaking to several suppliers already. But again, like what you said earlier, the cost is really the challenge. You did mention we're coming from a developing country, so increasing the cost or passing it on to passengers will be quite crazy. Because I was telling David earlier, the cost of our tickets for the same length— actually, you showed it in your slide earlier as well— is so cheap that if we actually— so affordable, rather. If we actually put on a $5 increase, probably most of the people will not be able to afford the ticket.

Leigh Hudson:Thank you.

Aileen Isidro (Mac):So this is something that we're really, really looking at. That's why we're really pushing the SAF suppliers to actually consider that. And then at the same time, one thing that we are trying to learn from, because as a developing country, we still don't have a policy on carbon yet, and we're watching out for all the other countries who have it and how you guys are implementing it, because we don't know how things are panning out there. So, We're watching closely, but every day there's something new that's happening, so we, we're just anticipating.

Hélène Burger:Yeah, okay.

David Wills:And Leigh, I mean, from IAG, you're relatively high-performing in this space. You've probably passed these milestones that Cebu and other airlines are seeing in the future. What's been your experience and how might that inform what's going to happen in this region in the next 5 years?

Leigh Hudson:Well, we, we started a long time ago, so I have to say it's not been an overnight success story. I mean, doing SAF, decarbonizing, it's, it's hard, right? I mean, if it was easy, we'd have all done it by now. But I think one of the, the changes we're going to see over the 5 years coming up is that any of the airlines here flying into Europe and the UK will be probably using SAF. We have mandates there and we're starting to see more mandates coming in, particularly in Asia. Asia is such an important region for SAF. It's the source of a lot of the feedstock, as Helen said. We've also got manufacturing facilities here. You're the supplier to the world right now. So it's an incredibly important region, and as you say, David, I think everyone will be looking carefully at how, how the UK and EU mandates work or not. They're not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I also see climate leadership is shifting more east. It was interesting at the latest ICAO meeting how China was expressing support for the Corsia regulations. So I think there's real leadership coming from, from Asia right now, and it's certainly encouraging to see that there's so much activity going on here. And we need to try and find a way to make SAF a lot more affordable for airlines so we can all get on the journey, because I think that's the big challenge.

David Wills:Yeah, there are a couple of comments made about Asia leading in terms of feedstock availability, in terms of SAF production. Um, how's that feel on the ground? Because it doesn't— I don't know that it necessarily feels like there's, there's sort of a lot of SAF flowing out of this region, or, um, announcements about, you know, increasing supply available. There seems to be a constant supply side discussion. What is Asia doing the right thing? What, what does it need to do? How can it accelerate that? How can it capitalise on the opportunity that it's got, do you think? Um, I don't know, Leigh, if you want to have the— since you're from out of the region.

Leigh Hudson:Um, well, I think we can't do this without government support, and, um, one of the things that I think needs to come together in, in government terms is ambition matching action. At the moment, lots of states have ambition but haven't necessarily teamed up with enough action to lay the groundwork. So I think if, if Asia wants to be a bigger user of SAF, that would be my advice, that they really do need to get policies in place that help airlines. And we were talking earlier, actually, there's lots of startup companies in Asia I'm sure airlines here in the room have had a lot of approaches from startups saying, please give us some funding to help us get a project going. And again, that's an area where governments can play and help seed fund some of these. We certainly wouldn't have as many projects as we do in the UK, for example, without the government providing some small amounts of development funding. So I think that's— we can't do it on our own, really. We need everyone.

David Wills:Yeah, yeah. And just on the topic of, I guess, policy, government policy and regulation, you've made comments a couple of times about mandates. And I've seen Willy Walsh recently say he thinks they should be scrapped because they're not working. Mandates versus incentives. What are the pros and cons of the different approaches that have been taken to regulation and as a way of trying to stimulate some, or force or stimulate some growth in supply side of SAF. Fabrice, I don't know whether you have a perspective from APAC around appropriate policy.

Leigh Hudson:Thanks.

Fabrice Espinosa:Yeah, a few things I want to mention before moving into that space is, We believe, and I think that was interesting to talk about Europe, for example, is if you look at every single domestic market in Asia Pacific, maybe apart from China and India, every domestic market is going to be too small to develop a competitive SAF industry and SAF ecosystem that will ultimately benefit airlines because then it means you're going to access to a cheaper— cheap maybe not the right word, but cheaper SAF.

David Wills:Yeah.

Fabrice Espinosa:At good quality and international standards, right? So you will need to have a regional market rather than a domestic market, and that's what SAFRA is promoting, is really to have this regional market in Asia-Pacific. So that's the first thing I wanted to say. The second aspect is we have the benefits of not being the first mover, so we can— we should learn from the first mover mistakes. And US is very much about carrots. Europe is very much about the stick. So we should have that flexibility in bringing the two together that will help decreasing the price premium for SAF for airlines. But at the same time, we need also to give certainty to the market, to the financiers, to the project managers in terms of quantity and visibility for SAF.

Leigh Hudson:Thank you.

Fabrice Espinosa:SAF of tax, right? So we need a bit of balance too. There are different— there are plenty of ideas, good ideas, bad ideas, and we're discussing with airlines, our members, with producers, with financials and everything how to implement things. But definitely we believe we need a bit of both, a lot of both, to be honest.

Hélène Burger:If I may, when we discuss with the different countries in the region, There is an interest for SAF, but we have— and there is, as you mentioned, there is feedstock. When we look at the analysis that was done by Amiq for IRENA, just with the currently approved feedstock, not even considering potentially new feedstock and all the improvements that we are looking at in terms of land usage, we have 26 million tonnes SAF potential just in the ASEAN region. So that is way beyond any kind of SAF or voluntary demand at this stage. The question is how to unlock it. And here we face 2 challenges. One is, even though the countries are interested, of course, in supporting the development of a SAF ecosystem, they have also different priorities. So we need to be able to bring the dialogue on sustainable aviation fuel, not just with the ministry or secretary of transport, but to engage the discussion with the Ministry of Energy. And we also need to develop the fact that it's not just for the aviation. If we develop a SAF ecosystem, whether it's the feedstock part or the refinery part, then we can start talking about job creation in the countries, about impact on the NDC reduction for that country, and also just environmental benefits. One of the feedstocks that is largely available in the region is agriculture waste. For those living in the region, it's a massive problem, the burning, the hazing of this waste. So it has side benefits that are both social and economical. That is a way to bring the dialogue to the authorities to go beyond an aviation-for-aviation discussion. The second challenge we face is there are lots of startups. There is potentially the feedstock. The logistics, are in an island area mostly, is then the financing. And not all the countries in the region have the financial backbone to self-finance those projects. So this is where we need to bring in more and more investors, more risk-taking investors, because not all of those projects are mature or are in so-called risky countries.

Fabrice Espinosa:Maybe one more word on the advantages also for the region in terms of moving to SAF. Today, 85% of kerosene is coming from outside of Asia-Pacific, right? So in terms of energy security, by having local capabilities of production of SAF, our governments are seeing this as an opportunity for them as well.

David Wills:Yeah, okay. Actually, one question I wanted to ask when you were talking before, Fabrice, is what level of intergovernment engagement, collaboration is happening, and how likely is it that there will be a sort of Pan-Asia, Southeast Asia approach to this that's stitched up and consistent in the different jurisdictions?

Fabrice Espinosa:Thank you, David, for the question. Just before I answer, maybe I check in, is there any government person in the room?

David Wills:All right.

Fabrice Espinosa:There is some discussions. There are some discussions, right? But usually the way it works in the governments is— in the countries is basically you have the Ministry of Transport talking to the Ministry of Transport. You're going to have the Ministry of Energy talking to the Ministry of Energy. In ASEAN, for example, recently we had some meetings from the ministries of energy 2 weeks ago in KL because Malaysia is leading ASEAN today. Malaysia. Last November, it was the Ministry of Transportation in KL as well, meeting all together. The issue we have is for SAF, the leading ministries in every country is going to be a different one. Some of them is going to be the Ministry of Transport, like it is in Singapore, for example. Others is going to be Ministry of Energy. For some others, it's going to be Ministry of Trade, Ministry of Plantations or Agriculture, if you want, in Malaysia, for example. And usually those ministers, they don't cross each other. The Ministry of Transport is talking to the Ministry of Transport, but I don't think you have an example of the Ministry of Transport talking on a regular basis with the Ministry of Energy. And that's where it's a problem, all right, because then we don't really progress on the different topics. And that's why also it's interesting to have an association gathering the whole ecosystem, because with members coming from the energy sectors, coming from the transportation sectors, we are able to talk to the different ministries and gather them all together to advance. Trying to advance on, on those policies.

David Wills:Yeah, yep, okay. Um, a couple of times we've talked about, I guess, the, the cost impact, um, and so to the bigger question of how, how do we pay for the net zero transition? I mean, one answer is that the ticket price just goes up 45% or whatever it might be, and it's a straight pass-through. I mean, Eileen, you've already talked about some of the challenges there. What are your thoughts about how do we afford the transition without cutting travel, air travel out to 80% of the people who might do it once a year to visit family but can no longer afford it? How do we move forward from a paying for this point of view? If you have the answer to that, I'm going to write it down.

Leigh Hudson:Well, I think we were talking earlier about willingness to pay of our customers, right? So I'm sure all the airlines in the room have done a survey with customers and they all say, yeah, we want to pay for more sustainable travel. And then when you ask them to pay for it, they all say, no, maybe we don't. So I think it's It's this challenge of how do we balance mandates with voluntary action and investment. It's not easy. I mean, we did half a million tons of carbon reduction last year across the group in a world where there were no mandates that we had to comply with. Just maybe there was one in France and a couple of the Nordics, but 98% of that SAF was in voluntary markets. And we used a combination of government incentives, other incentives, and our customers' support. Customer sponsorship was huge and continuing to be really strong this year. Our corporate customers have really helped us drive that SAF take-up. So that's one solution. Obviously, it's not going to get us all the way to net zero. The other thing that we're doing is we just worked with— I know we've got Japan Airlines, Cathay Pacific, and Singapore Airlines are part of our Breakthrough OneWorld Energy Venture, which is looking for those breakthrough technologies that can really reduce the cost of SAF. So a bit of a plug for that. Obviously, just because it's called OneWorld doesn't mean it's all OneWorld Airlines. As many airlines want to join, please see You can see me in the break, but I think we have to do a bit more on the innovation front to try and find those, those low-cost solutions that can really give us a breakthrough.

David Wills:Right, okay, actually I did want to, I did want to ask because one of my, I guess one of my concerns is that Flying becomes more expensive. It's unavoidable if we're going to layer on these costs of whether it's through SAF, whether it's through offsets, whether it's through another technology. I mean, what do you think? What would be the social impact, and how might you be able to address it in your context?

Aileen Isidro (Mac):In our context, it's quite— Massive, because we have more than 7,000 islands and air transport is so crucial in our day-to-day. So we actually have almost half of our domestic travelers doing it so that they can go home, visit family and friends. It was mentioned also earlier. So if we do increase ticket prices, the impact— We're just going to be taking that opportunity away. So, and, and I don't know if it's really from a social responsibility perspective the right thing to do as well.

Hélène Burger:Yeah.

David Wills:Helene, I wanted to ask you on a slightly different topic, what maybe Airbus, but maybe just more generally technology developments, whether it's in new propulsion or Or elsewhere that might contribute to net zero more than we currently think it might? What else might be there that gives us some reason for optimism?

Hélène Burger:Well, if we look at the current fleet flying in the world, 70% is old generation aircraft. So it is not just Boeing, it's the entire fleet. So the renewal of the fleet is a key element to contribute to that net-zero target. Of course, the other one is the breakthrough technologies, whether it's wing design, engine design, new fuel hydrogen-powered solutions. We're looking into it, but realistically, this will take time. You know, a development process, certification process, there will be no shortcut here, so it's going to take some time. There's one thing we haven't talked about here, but I think it's quite quite relevant for the Asia-Pacific region is the operational aspect, the operational improvement. We have a sky that is very fragmented in the region. We have— when we look at the future development of aviation in this region, we are in the range of, if I remember correctly, 4.7 per annum by 2045. So it is a fast-growing region. So that means that traffic will get denser and denser. So we need to work now.

David Wills:Thank you.

Hélène Burger:On optimizing, which will be fuel saving, which is the most sustainable fuel, is the one you don't burn. And maybe ideally, and that's for the airlines to decide, that cost saving can be used maybe to pay for some SAF. But also just from a very egoistic point of view, to be able to absorb the future development of the traffic. And in a region where the sky is fragmented, the air traffic management system might not be at the latest If you fly in the region, you probably already have experienced the holding patterns, things like this. There is here a pool, a reservoir. It's not massive. It's not going to bring 50% of the future CO2 reduction. But I do believe in the region that's something that is worth looking at. And I go back to one of the challenges that Fabrice mentioned. You can optimize it state by state, airport by airport. But at some point, we'll have to reach this regional coordination aspect, because when you go from one airspace to another, that's where there is room for optimisation. And I, from a technical— technology point of view, I think it's something worth, because it's a short return on investment.

David Wills:Yeah, okay. Okay, just changing topic to corporate customers, if you like. There's been, over the recent years, many of the big corporates have come out with carbon reduction targets, and many of them specific travel reduction targets. So there is a, I guess, a chance that corporates are going to start reducing their travel to reduce their carbon. But there's also an opportunity, I guess, to partner with corporates in driving net zero through SAF partnerships and other mechanisms. I mean, maybe Leigh, how do— what do you see as the role of business corporate customers of yours in sort of continuing the success of IAG, but also helping you on the road rather than driving up demand that is, is going to raise carbon emissions.

Leigh Hudson:It's a bit like the conversation we just had that some countries are going to go slower than others on this, some airlines are less able to move as fast, and some customers are going to move faster than others. So, I mean, I would say that in our program one of the things we've really had to work hard to get right is the sustainability of the fuel and being able to evidence that to our customers. And that's taken a lot of hard work to get all of the paperwork and all the chain of custody evidence for that SAF, where the feedstocks come from, make sure that they know when they buy it, it's actually not causing deforestation somewhere. So that would be one of the learnings I would share with the other airlines is spend the time on your contracts to to do that. And yes, hopefully you can find corporate customers that will, will help you on the journey, but it's not going to work for everyone, and for every business model is different. So again, it's not going to get us all the way. That's where the government support— and actually, one thing we haven't done a lot of is working in partnership with other sectors, because refineries don't just produce SAF, they produce a lot of other end products, and that's one of the areas that the Breakthrough guys are looking at, is how can we find allies in other industries that are looking to decarbonise. And we've probably been a bit too aviation obsessed, centric on SAF for a while, that we should widen the interest.

David Wills:Yeah, yep, okay. Another topic, I mean, I mentioned in that last slide I presented about on disclosure that very few airlines actually report on their carbon offsets, and yet every airline in their net zero roadmap has a reasonably material piece on carbon offsets. So I wanted to get a sense of— I mean, Eileen, you and I spoke that for you they're a more tangible sort of opportunity now compared to some of the others.

Fabrice Espinosa:Yes.

David Wills:What's your view of the role of offsets?

Aileen Isidro (Mac):Okay, so before I answer that question, I wanted to also add to what Helene was saying earlier. So from a fuel efficiency perspective, what she was saying, I think we also need to consider the supply chain angle because the transition risk really goes to the airlines. So it's quite crazy because it causes a lot of disruption also from an operation perspective. But why I brought it up, because exactly what she was saying, ideally that fuel efficiency, we should be able to actually use as funds for whatever projects that could possibly offset. So an example would be a nature-based solution. So again, this whole ecosystem, if we think about it, there are so many kinds of projects that if we, like what she was referring to earlier, The Philippines is so rich in terms of feedstock, it's quite crazy. So if we actually put up projects that will be able to supply or support that community, that will be able to actually connect to that ecosystem, that I think will make this whole plan work. It's really tough if we don't think about it from all angles. So that's why from a, from a strategy, we're doing the efficiency first, of course. But at the same time, we're looking at contributions already. So we're speaking to other, to many communities that we can actually partner with and explore how we're going to be able to either be part of that contribution.

David Wills:Yeah, okay. There seems to be like a reasonably high level of scepticism in the community customer base around offsets, whether it's because of historically some of the less robust programmes that have been invested in. I mean, what does the industry need to do, do you guys think, to restore some faith You know, key element of the net-zero journey.

Aileen Isidro (Mac):I'd like to say something on that. I think the funny part, or the ironic part, is that there was so much bad press about it that now the regulations are so strict that it's so hard to even get certification for anything. So for us to even be able to get into a project, we need to go through a 100-step process and get all the kinds of ticking before we can even do anything. So I guess establishing that balance of what really we need to measure and what can be actionable immediately would be good.

Leigh Hudson:Yeah.

David Wills:Okay, there's a couple of questions there that talk to low-cost carriers, and I've made a few mentions of it in the presentation. You know, low-cost carriers tend to dominate the most current, the most carbon-efficient airlines. They've got high load factors. They've got dense seating. They've got new aircraft. And on the other side, you've got full-service carriers that are actually leading on the SAF. You know, we've got IAG leading the way, but most of the SAF is And the SAF programmes and the SAF investment is through full-service carriers. So it's not that there's necessarily 2 different models, but what's— I mean, Helene, maybe given that you supply into both, what's your thought on perhaps the different approaches to carbon efficiency and carbon reduction?

Aileen Isidro (Mac):Okay, so for me, this one, it really is going to go back to the price that I was talking about earlier. If we're not going to be able to address the cost, exactly the financing portion of it, it has to be a real sustainable business model because there's no way that— our main objective as an LCC is really to provide affordable air travel.

Fabrice Espinosa:Okay.

Aileen Isidro (Mac):If we're not going to be able to do that, I don't think we'll be able to transition as fast as the full-service carriers will. So like what you were saying earlier, if we'll be able to actually provide supply that will be within the multiplier, I think we can make that work.

David Wills:Yeah. Sorry, Helene, do you have a comment on the low-cost full-service?

Hélène Burger:No, I mean, they have very different business models. And today, out of all the solutions available— sorry, I'm Airbus, I have to say it— but fleet renewal is an essential tool to reduce the carbon footprint of your fleet. So low-cost carriers that have very new fleets, of course, benefit from that, that is one essential way to immediately reduce emissions. I think we have to consider, depending on the local carriers versus full-service carriers, but also the environment in which the airline operates, the speed at which SAF will be adopted. But I do believe by 2050, we all agree, if the industry wants to reach Net zero 2050, SAF will be part of the equation.

David Wills:Yeah, yeah. Lee, do you think as pressure, whether it's regulatory or customer pressure, grows around sustainability, that low-cost carrier will become the dominant model?

Leigh Hudson:I think we all spend a lot of of time and money on modernizing our fleets. And as Helene said, they're different business models. So I can't see a massive shift in that over the next, say, decade. I think that, as you say, we've all— if we believe in net zero and our countries have all signed up to the Paris Agreement, By 2050, we have to get there. And one of the things for me that started to stand out is that while other sectors are decarbonizing, and in transport, you know, electric cars are starting to make real breakthroughs, more and more other industries are electrifying. So we, in 10 years, are we going to be the big dirty polluter that's left? And that's the big challenge for us, I think, that if there is a feedback loop that happens with climate change and we do see a big shift— I mean, at the moment, we're all living with climate change every day, aren't we? I mean, we've cancelled flights to the Caribbean today because of the terrible weather impact of the hurricane out there. We're getting more clear air turbulence. We're getting— more extreme heat. It's really changing some of our markets already, so we're already living with that. But if there is a big shift and we are the only big user of fossil fuels left as other transport modes decarbonize, and that's, I think, our big challenge of how do we future-proof our business. And I wish I had a crystal ball to know, I wish we all did, that we could say to our boards, you know, and our governments, this is an area where we really, really need to risk manage that. You know, it's quite hard when you can't see the future.

David Wills:Yeah, we've got a minute and a bit left, and I'm going to ask a question that's probably not a minute and a half answer, but do you, each of you, think the industry will hit net zero in 2050? Fabrice?

Fabrice Espinosa:If I didn't believe in it, I won't be here, right? So yes, I believe, but I believe that the whole ecosystem, airlines included, we have to work together to make that happen. It's a long way to go. It's not going to be easy, like Leith said it. But do we have a choice, right? I don't think so. I'm passionate about aviation. I've been— when I was a kid, I went to all the air shows and everything. And I believe that there is no other way for aviation than to become sustainable, fully sustainable. And for me, SAF is part of the story. So yeah, I think so. I'm convinced.

David Wills:Good. I like the positivity. Helene, what do you think?

Hélène Burger:Yes, I mean, same as Fabrice. I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't believe we have a way to get there. But for sure, we need to make things move now. So we need all the parties around the table, and especially in Asia Pacific, because this is where we can really develop a SAF supply for, for probably the rest of the world. So very exciting. Next year's, I believe, in Asia Pacific.

David Wills:All right, thank you. We're out of time, so I'd like to thank you 4 guys for your contributions. Very valuable. Thank you.

Hélène Burger:Thank you.

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